
I Come Not To Praise Caesar…
During the time that I have been blathering away in blogs and comments, here on OS, I’ve noticed that there seems to be a small number of very different types of blogger who contribute their work here. I see two broad categories. There are those who write pretty serious essays on matters of social/economic/political or instructional content and there are those who write tales, poetry, autobiographical, and photographic blogs.
Those in the first category need only write in a clear and understandable manner. They need not have great writing skills, although some certainly do.
Those in the second category are of two broad types. There are those who want, with all their hearts and souls, to write well. They are here to learn/practice to do that. There are also those who write here, usually offering autobiographical content, who are doing so to maintain or to improve their mental health or simply to share their lives and concerns with others in a friendly and accepting ambiance. My concern, in this blog, is this last two segments of our OS community.
I think it would be well for us to learn to separate them in our minds for the purpose of responding to them in comments on their blogs. I have noticed that we have the habit of responding to both categories with praise and support. This is a wonderfully humane and helpful thing to those trying to solve personal difficulties whose need is to be comforted and loved while they re-gain their stability and to those who are “sharing” personal experiences.
This is not, however, of any help at all to aspiring writers. We, who are in this category, cannot improve if always being complimented on our scribblings. We also do not assist other wannabe writers when we pay unwarranted compliments to their efforts either. This becomes a case of mutual masturbation – or even a circle jerk – offering a certain amount of pleasure but otherwise of little value; and sometimes even harmful in that someone being unduly praised may not come to know of his shortcomings as a writer. None of us can improve what we don’t know needs improvement.
I’d like to ask my fellow OSers what they think of the idea that each person here who wishes to be considered to be in the category of “writers & aspiring writers” to insert this information at the beginning of each blog they write that falls into this category. I’d like to suggest that when someone labels himself as an “aspiring writer/writer” that we examine his offerings with a view to pointing out any things that seem to detract from it. Such things as poor spelling, grammatical errors, punctuation problems, run-on sentences and other technical errors can be mentioned and suggestions made.
Content can be evaluated for originality, presentation, etc. No one commenting on such offerings needs to be of high technical skill; only a reader who sees anomalies in the story he is reading. It is, in the end, always the reader who determines how well a tale is told.
Those who write to improve and learn ought to get over expecting “compliments” and pats on the head and expect to see helpful criticism and valuable suggestions. Oh yes, some of the suggestions might have little or no value but those will likely be outweighed by those that do.
So what thinkest thou, my fellow OS scribblers? Are you interested in being nudged toward improving your writing skills in this way? Are you willing to nudge other OS aspiring writers also?


Salon.com
Comments
r. for provocative
That's exactly the kind of individual experience that can be effectively shared with others who are also trying to improve. It may not hold true for everyone, but it is certainly worth knowing about! My thanks for your input.
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What about if we "aspiring writers/writers" mention that in the tags of any blog we'd like to have critiqued by readers or our fellow writers?
Or even just add on a line at the end of our blog stating that it is open to serious suggestions for improvement?
What do you think would be a good way to do this?
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Perhaps when a bunch of us commit to being involved we'll all look for that indication that serious criticism is welcome and wanted. This may have a very small beginning until people see how it works. I confess that I didn't even notice anything like this on your day 9. I just wasn't looking for it, I suppose.
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Spread the word amongst those whose writing and opinions you value!
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Still, I'm in agreement with you, and thank you for taking up this subject. Now put on your armour before you get pecked to shreds - oh, but you have claws, right? And this cat can always out-wit a chicken. :o)
R♥
I always like what Fusun does, when I've got an apostrophe our of place (or some other disgrace) by sending me an EP.
My sense that Sky's right in asking we somehow invite critiques as well as praise.
You two got something going on I don't know about?
Er..... Spike; it's called a PM (Personal Message)
....and yes; I think a writer should chose whether or not to have his writing critiqued on each occasion he posts something. There may be times when he just wants to present a bit of fun fluff and not taken to task for errors.
Thanks for your support you two!
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;-)
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Good point! I wonder if a writer having to ask that each of his blogs be evaluated by readers, on an individual basis, might not keep the bad feelings to a minimum. After all, he could opt to not ask for such criticism on any blog also.
.
It would also be quite helpful to the reader if the aspiring writers used About Me or a linked blog entry to describe what kind or better writer they aspire to be. Target audience is a huge factor in evaluating tone and presentation. And maybe a continuum of how thick skinned you are, ranging for delicate flower to rhino!
Speaking of presentation - if you can fix the line spacing in your post above, my eyes would be much happier!!
Hmmmm...interesting discussion.
Some of my favorites here are heavy hitters and I will PM an error that I noted--usually it will be in the title or a key sentence otherwise I let it go. As for myself, my eyesight is very bad and I can easily miss something when editing. I appreciate it when Fusun advises me of corrections that need to be addressed because I care about accuracy. Because I am an admirer of English writers, I have been using less punctuation marks. The English are not nearly as slavish as we are and so I am not interested in learning about what some may consider to be missing commas. A mess-up from cutting and pasting, a wrong or misspelled word? Yes, please!
my writing is spontaneous efflux from the Earth Goddess
when i can charm her into giving me wisdom,
and from the sky god
who distributes abstractions i feel a responsibility
to live my life into, or at least correct him when his grammer is
unkempt. like recently:
1.earth goddess said, "IF I can stop one heart from breaking,
I shall not live in vain;
If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain,
Or help one fainting robin
Unto his nest again,
I shall not live in vain." emily d.
2. sky god said, hm.
"He who binds to himself a joy
Does the wingèd life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sunrise.
blake.
discernment of sky and earth wisdom & some kinda
reconcilition is a holy mission .
typos are indications of neo freudian slippages.
in my cups, i am beyond criticism becuz my feeble
fumbling with english is for a mission.
to free the unfree. to snip the mental manacles
with a mighty tree branch snipper.
writing is for the narcissistic sometimes.
they can put out good shit.
they advise us of the frailites of the human psyche.
but frail is no good. we gotta get pumped up.
As far as critiques and critics; I think that's all good. Doesn't hurt my feelings in the least to have typos pointed out. Hell, I know I'm not shy about pointing out the same in others' writing, although usually via EP (ha)... I mean PM.
Tagging? I suppose-- but from a personal POV, I do what I do. Sometimes I seriously try to write well and sometimes I don't, but just try to be entertaining in a class clown kind of way.
A couple of times though, I sent drafts to three or four different writers here who I respected and asked them to do mark-ups before publishing. I would say that anyone who is serious about getting better should try that. I was amazed at the different suggestions I received when I did that.
I believe people come to OS to find a creative outlet. If anything, social media and other Web-based forms of communication prove we are all artists. All humans are meant to express themselves artistically through music, painting and writing.
Blogging enables many to express themselves through writing, even if it doesn't strike some as "professional."
I've read some posts here that are poorly written from a journalist's standpoint, but the writer's heart, soul and message shine through brilliantly. I've read some posts that read like college term papers, but were thought provoking nonetheless. I've read others that strike me as "advocacy journalism," presenting only a narrow side of the story, but were delivered with conviction and passion.
I've read autobiographical posts, photo memoirs, etc., that had little to do with my world or breaking news stories on the international scene, but they moved me anyway.
Don't get me going on grammar, syntax and style. I could go on all day and night, and it wouldn't be pretty. There are too many formal writing standards and arguments of what is right and what is wrong. I adhere to AP style, but not everyone does.
Finally, I agree with another who commented here: Who has time? If someone wants my advice, I'll offer it gladly. Otherwise, I'll enjoy the nuggets of good writing I find, and keep the rest to myself.
To Sky and all comment-ers: I'm following all of this with the proverbial baited breath (though I have to be cautious about baiting my breath). NIFTY THREAD!! A real morale-booster for this one OS-er [been trying to find anything at all to read in the ?"news"? world that isn't unbearable; no luck there :-(]
R
As for the issue that critical comments take time to write... Well, when I leave a comment I'm trying to make some kind of contribution other than "I liked this," for which we have a button. It could just as easily be a suggestion for improving the writing in the post.
Had it not been for this "blogging forum," I never would have had two pieces published in 2011. One fell into your first category and the other, a poem, of all things. I have been referred to by the publishers and editors as a "contributing writer and a contributing poet," neither of which I would ever tag or post here, other than in this comment.
A love for writing and dedication to improving the chosen research, content and style, is highly subjective and often just dumb luck and timing.
I appreciate your commitment to the betterment of writing skill and content, yet also see that OS is a forum that is open to all styles, types, skill sets and a vast variety of writing venues. I really enjoy the individualism here and the writing that presents everything from the very serious subject content to the very light hearted, comedic and poetic folly.
OS is the perfect place for anything and everything and all the mutual respect and support that the comments bring to each writer.
I don't see "writers and aspiring writers" in your tags. Does this mean you've christened yourself the arbiter of good writing? How do you propose to define that category anyway? What exactly is an aspiring writer - someone who's never been published but wants to be? A brand-new blogger? And are "aspiring writers" allowed to give suggestions to other "aspiring writers"? How's that going to help, exactly, if they both suck?
Methinks this sentence is quite revealing:
Those who write to improve and learn ought to get over expecting “compliments” and pats on the head and expect to see helpful criticism and valuable suggestions.
" 'Get over' expecting compliments and pats on the head"? How snide and condescending. Your new avatar is a perfect example of your true intent. I'm sure your claws are at least as sharp as your fangs.
Like another commenter, I, too, cannot write daily (or even monthly) due to no time to call my own. Maybe when I retire (if I ever can...) I can prioritize writing improvement.
Rob mentioned that I've solicited critiques before. I've done it as CR and also as Snippy. What works for me is to squeeze "Please Critique" or "Critiques Welcome" into my headline.
The most successful one, for me, was called "Ghosts of the Gulf of Mexico," a comparison of two times I'd visited the Gulf. Fellow OSers offered insights and suggestions in comments that were a revelation to me. I recognized, perhaps for the first time, that good writing involves so much more than gracefully-composed sentences or well-chosen vocabulary. I felt as if I had all the pretension knocked out of me, but the experience was beyond price.
For my incomplete short story, I couldn't conclude it. I've never been able to get beyond exposition in the plot pyramid, and for that reason, tend to stick to personal essays. Greg Correll (whom I'd PM'ed to ask for a response) told me that it's my world and I call the shots as to what happens, so my possibilities were unlimited. I suppose everyone else knows that, but I'd never thought of it that way before. While I mulled over my endless possible endings to the story, Kathy Riordan PM'ed me to tell me she had finished the story for me! I asked her to hang onto it so that I wasn't influenced by it, but after nearly a year went by, I told her to go ahead and post her completed story if she wanted to, since I was on track to do exactly nothing with it. She did post it, I think about a year ago, and I think it's still there. It's called "The Parachute." It was really fun and thought-provoking to see what she'd done with it.
More collaborations would be a lot of fun, too, Sky.
I missed the prom. I lifted dancer.
My hand accidently touched a bosom.
I knew folk who knew powers of bosom.
On pot they read editor Kerry's graffiti.
huh?
Pot is rural for sitting in a outhouse pot.
I was gonna be a writer until I read Kerry.
Kerry's scribble-graffiti was very vulgar.
I decided to not become a good spieler;,`
thinker[,] or serious prom bosom feeler.
I still seek counsel at bars or hick saloon.
I despair of ever being a EP- nose picker.
You pick your nose, but no pick Kerry's.
He picks otter's nose and eat bass craps.
Read Kerry's scribble @ Salon or Open?
Open Salon has talented boogie dancers.
Why be a famous brown-nose butt sniffs?
smile. . .
behave.
I just had a sauna and smell of lavender.
`
;.
`
"Kerry..
He picks otter's nose and eat bass craps."
I smell ya Art! Mmmm, lavender!!
A few of you have not read the full post, it seems. Or I've failed to make clear what I'm saying.
First: I am not suggesting that anyone be "compelled" in any way, to comment on any blog - either positively or negatively.
Second: I am not suggesting that any blogger be compelled to mark any blog of his/hers as welcoming criticism.
Third: I have not suggested that all OS writers/aspiring writers are competent to offer professional criticism to writers/aspiring writers, although some who write here definitely are; what I suggested is that they, and others, might offer some useful feedback as READERS.
Fourth: There are, of course, many who blog here who do not have the time or the inclination to offer suggestions or criticisms on the writing of others.
So don't.
No one is standing over you with a whip trying to force you to do so. And if you prefer to just leave a "pat on the head", I see nothing to stop you from doing so. Pats on the head are very nice! Almost as good as belly rubs!
My purpose here is to suggest that we have might want to have an understood means of marking our posts so that others know that they may, WITHOUT INCITING OUR IRE, offer what criticism they think appropriate on any blog so marked. When a blog is NOT marked for such criticism, then comments might lean towards the "social aspect" rather than the critical.
tr ig
You've never spent a summer inside the arctic circle, I take it.
Margaret,
You have some good points. Thank you for taking time to post them in your comment. You might give some thought to quoting a whole sentence instead of just the latter half of it when finding fault. I did, after all, preface the "quote" you mention, i.e.,"" 'Get over' expecting compliments and pats on the head"", with the phrase ""Those who write to improve and learn ought to....""
As to me not "tagging" this blog as welcoming critique; that, my dear woman, is the whole point of this blog. I repeatedly ask for the opinions of those who read it. I expect you'll notice that if you re-read it.
Thank you also for your criticism of my avatar and for your insightful determination of its "meaning." I'm sure we'd all benefit by you doing such a "reading" of all of our avatars. And just think.... you don't even have to ask for our opinion of your deep insights!
.
You might want to re-read my comment, however, because I did reference the entire quote and then selected that particular sentence for emphasis.
Here is another one:
"I think it would be well for us to learn to separate them in our minds for the purpose of responding to them in comments on their blogs."
Why are you so concerned about "this last two segments of our OS community." (I believe that should read "these" last two segments, btw.) And what are they? You have not clearly defined the "last two segments."
This is a thinly veiled opinion piece on your dislike, perhaps even contempt, for commenters who give "unwarranted compliments" to writers that you feel are undeserving of them. Who are you to judge if my praise is unwarranted? And when you go on to say things like this, it is not only highly opinionated but downright offensive:
"This becomes a case of mutual masturbation – or even a circle jerk – offering a certain amount of pleasure but otherwise of little value; and sometimes even harmful in that someone being unduly praised may not come to know of his shortcomings as a writer."
Just out of curiosity, why do you deem those who write
"...pretty serious essays on matters of social/economic/political or instructional content..."
not require great writing skills but those who write what I shall categorize as "personal pieces" apparently should be held to a higher standard? Why do you separate the two? Good writing in theory should apply to anything written. Do you think the New York Times has different standards for what it publishes, depending on the content?
I suspect you don't care for the autobiographical, confessional or memoir type of work you frequently find here on OS and that is what is at the heart of this.
As for your avatar, I wasn't criticizing it. I love it; it is quite revealing.
Your comment is deliberately offensive. I have no idea why you are taking such a mean-spiritied stance on this unless it is fear that someone might point out an error on your part and/or a love of undeserved compliments that swell your ego.
I will let your comments stand as horrible examples of the kind of personal attack that one is open to when asking for input from readers.
I hope that readers can see that yours is the ONLY comment to take such a position though. Most have contained very helpful thoughts and have generously offered whatever help they can. I, personally, will open myself up to such as you so as to also be open to all the other fine people here who can offer me excellent suggestions and ideas. I'll not let one selfish snarky person close me off to the good ones.
And Margaret, while you did copy my whole sentence to your comment, you then selected only part of it - a phrase, not a sentence (you might want to learn the difference) - to attack out of context.
Thanks for your input so far but if you continue this personal attack, I'll simply delete your comments from here on out. Just as I think that there is a time for me to STFU and listen to others, I also think that there is a time to say, "that's enough of that shit." Consider it said.
And your opinion of my avatar means less than nothing to me - I note where it comes from.
.
You have it exactly right.
I am not suggesting that everyone, especially a newbie, be subject to serious critique of their writing.
I am suggesting that those of us who are ready and willing to ask for such a close examination of our work, have an understood and accepted manner of doing so.
This would not preclude someone from offering any compliments they thought a piece deserved in any way. After all, all of us write some good stuff now and then.
Margaret may not believe this but I DO appreciate the fact that her opposition, even though in the form of a personal attack, takes much more thought than Linda's "Huggggggggggs" that is part of nearly every comment she makes. "Hugggggggggs" is nice but from Linda it's as common as dirt and thus of little value, in my eyes. Others may feel differently about it.
Thankee muchly for your fine contribution to this discussion!
.
Grrrrrrr. I chase cats, you know. Er, are you declawed?
At your age (and mine) we are probably pretty well centred and stable most of the time. We also may not give a damn what anyone thinks of certain things we write. But, if you're like me at all, there are some things that I'd love to get feedback on. This mostly, but not always, occurs when I try something new to me.
Snippy,
Catch me and see.....!
ᴼᴥƪ
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Your comment has been deleted since it was a blatant attempt to be insulting and without any foundation whatsoever. If I've failed to tell you to stay off my blog before this, let me do so now. Our modest disagreement was not so great as to deserve such vitriol from you on a continuing basis. Soooooo.... go away, brat, you bore me.
Jan,
I see nothing "contrary" between our points of view.
I can find nowhere that I ever accused you of "not being able to give or take criticism without blowing a gasket."
I have also gone to great pains to indicate that this suggestion would NOT apply to any who do not specifically ask for such critical comments. It is merely a means for those of us, who would welcome such criticism, to ask for it with some confidence that those who see our request will have a clear idea what it is that we are asking.
AGAIN, I'll state categorically; No one who doesn't wish to ask for or offer any such criticism need be involved.
Apparently this might not be for you. Fine. I have no problem with that. Do you have a problem with those of us who FREELY OPT to do it exercising our right to do so?
;-)
.
.
Your hypersensitivity to ANY critical response to your ideas and your choice of wording DOES show a sort of condicending arrogance of a sort that I have NO desire for. (like that dangling participle, dude??? Ain't it jus to pritty???)
P.S. your responses to Margaret were pissy and uncalled for. You get to have your big, bad, 'ol opinion, but so do others. Maybe you just need a good dose of prunes. You're sounding pretty constipated, ya know?
You write so well at times and comment even better at times. But your outraged defence of any woman, no matter what she says to any man (unless it's to you), is wearing thin and getting pretty boring.
Perhaps you didn't notice that Margaret only mentioned the IDEA we're discussing in passing and that the main content of her comments were direct personal attacks on me. She even attacked my wee avatar, fer gawds sake!!!
Had I wanted to take her comment apart piece by piece, you might have thought me heartless. As it was I was as gentle with her as it was possible to be.
And what's with this business of attacking me and when I respond, accusing me of attacking others for "their opinions"? Is she - are you - so stupid that y'all don't know the difference between tackling a position you disagree with and initiating an ad hominem attack?
Try to relax a bit dear. Not everyone who disagrees with an individual woman's ideas is "attacking womanhood", y'know?
;-)
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Nowhere have I tried to "organize EVERYBODY here" for ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER. Are you clever enough to find morning when it comes, sir?
Since your whole comment was predicated upon that one word "everybody", I'll just ignore the rest of it.
I notice that ALL of those few who have objected strenuously to the idea have done the same thing.... implied that this was some sort of "to-be-forced-upon-us-all" concept. Y'know what?
If I weren't so busy crying over your puerile inability to get it straight, I'd just laugh you to scorn.
But it surely has taught me and, I've no doubt, quite a few others, something about "some of the people" here on OS.
.
As for comments, I value them. Even when they are crude! I leave them there for all to see. If someone decides they want to use crass or foul language, then that's up to them. I don't really give a damn! If they embarrass themselves, that's their business not mine. I have certainly done my share.
My suggestion to you is to stick with the intelligent posts and helpful comments and leave the rest of us cats, chickens and other critters to our own harmless devices.
Everyone here on OS handles comments made on their blogs in their own manner. I have never removed a comment that argues an idea. I will almost always remove a comment that is little more than an ad hominem attack on me, or anyone else. Those who want to do that have the privilege of creating a blog on their own page for that purpose. I do not leave a comment on my blog that I find offensive for the same reason that I don't leave dog shit in my living room when my dog makes a "mistake."
bobbot,
Thanks man, good comment! Much appreciated.
.
Your comment is offensive; but then you deliberately made it so. Still, I will leave it stand because part of it exemplifies an ad hominem attack perfectly and part of it is good critical comment. You, as have others here, have had to "read into" what I've said your own meaning. I don't share your interpretation of what I've written. Nor have I "implied" anything. What I've written here is plain, open, honest, and straightforward. There is no hidden or ambiguous, underlying meaning or intent. You'd know that if you didn't have an axe to grind.
So I'll tell you what..... You go off and play with your friends in any way that suits you all and I'll play with those people who like the game I have suggested. It seems that you just flatly refuse to accept the obvious; that my proposition is entirely voluntary.
Far from it being me who is trying to coerce anyone into doing something they don't wish to do, it is, in fact, you and a couple of others who want to stop some of us from trying to do as we'd like to do. For the edification and benefit of us. Not you - us. You have no say in the matter.
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I understand your point of view and consider it a valid one. Just as you have the choice of (not) acting on your position, so too do I have the choice of acting on mine. See my response to Kenny, above, for clarification of my position.
.
r./
I've had it up to 'here' with ad hominem attacks from you lot. Your last comment contained not one word about the idea I put forward but was solely an attack on me. Go shit in your own house. From this day forward any comment posted by you to any blog of mine will be deleted; starting with your last one.
.
Thanks for your comment; and for recognizing that I've repeatedly said that such a critique of one's blog would ONLY come as a result of a request that the READERS of that blog criticize it in that manner.
For some unknown reason, some commenters here have chosen to overlook that wee fact. It does an ol' fart good to see that it hasn't escaped the notice of such as yourself.
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Thanks for this.
rated with love
It's still fresh in my mind what happened to Linda Seccaspina and those terms were also thrown around. I'd hate to see that happen again to another writer. While you weren't naming names, a post like this is only a few keystrokes away from that happening.
I like the idea of saying I'd like critical readers.
I don't like the huffying and puffing and tossing about viral.
Geewhiz, I certainly could careless what anyone says about me, but do help me to be more clear, more flowing and not repetitive. Help me sift out chaft in my writing. Let me see that I could expand in my original concept or contract and narrow my viewpoint. Let me hear another way to say my say.
But, alas, each to his own and in the end- the very bottom of endedness. I write for myself and every OSer does too. It is to the self that we should maintain fidelity with and kindness- and I'm not talking self as who we be during our daily lives- but writer self. It was the drive to express yourself and to read others that caused you to Open Salon and have a gad at blogging. Even for the professional types out there- writer who to time to pound out their ideas-self must proceed other's who visit for a few minutes and move on the read and write in their own blog.
Therefore, I care. I care sometimes deeply about certain pieces and others I'm trying to draw a line, a bead and to find the way into a memory or idea. I care that fellow writers not dump on others for differing views. I care that we listen closely if someone indicates their post may cause heartburn and I slowly scroll and read and read.
I'm very new here. Seven months and honestly I don't understand why some get rated and others don't, but in the end...its not why I came.
I came to begin a 10 year quest to be a better writer, and I think over time I've slowly gotten better, but there is more ground to cover. So, I'll put "Critiques appreciated" in my first comment.
Yes, yes, one of these days, use my powers for good, blah blah blah!! :D
I very rarely critique, but suppose I'm one of those you point out as being guilty of head pats - it is however what I do. There are many here who are happy to offer constructive (and destructive) critical advice, irrespective of the one who is receiving it (and how it is worded and will be viewed by all). I'll leave that to them.
For me, writing is not a technical thing with rules, it's just another form of communication, that's the spirit I prefer to take it in, even if the writer's own intent is that it be more :).
Rated for worthy of discussion in the eyes of the aspiring ones.
Where do you get off at deeming yourself qualified to tell me that you don't like my terminology? You can say frig while I say fuck any time at all. I don't force you to say fuck and you'll damn sure never be permitted to censor my language.
You did indeed slip a little valid criticism into the personal attack in your original comment. If you care to look, you'll see that I acknowledged that valid criticism in a comment I made further along in the string. Then you went nuts on me.
I like you too but I really don't give a shit whether you like or dislike the terms "circle jerk" or "mutual masturbation" as a description of the habit of many folks on OS to each give each other nicey-nicey reciprocal pats on the back. I used a strong term in order emphasize that unhelpful practice. Hell, they sure got YOUR attention, didn't they? Purpose served.
In all debate, discussion, and intelligent argument, it is understood by civilized people that one attacks the idea NOT the person. Whether you do, or do not, consider me to be of any personal habits or traits, that you dislike, is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Your opinions about me, as a person, including my motivations (especially when you have only your, unsupported by any evidence whatsoever, guess as to those motivations) are not of any value to the discussion. What does your opinion of my avatar have to do with whether or not some of us chose to ask others to critique our blogs?
The question is whether or not you think that asking other OSers to offer criticism of one's blog could be helpful to the blog writer. You may agree or disagree. You may say anything at all about the "idea". That's the purpose of a discussion. That's why I put up ideas on OS.
But you may not launch a personal attack on me or anyone else in my blog space. You have a page. If you wish to make any personal remarks about others, please use THAT space; not mine.
Thankee kindly for your comment. May you always get thoughtful criticism and helpful advice. And for those who'd use your request to launch a personal attack on you? May the fleas of a thousand camels infest their crotches......;-)
Tink,
Your "shit" is often better written than my most serious offerings; and when it isn't, you at least offer some nip and Fancy Feast. You are one person whom I'll especially look forward to having criticism from. (dangle, dangle)
Did you miss the part that says that people would ASK for such a critique if they wanted it? Why would anyone not asking not be "left alone?"
Seer,
I have nowhere suggested that those who like "head pats" - either giving or receiving them - should not do so. This is NOT an "either / or" type of suggestion.
I, personally, don't care what "page" any reader or writer is on in their own development. I've had good advice from both babes and ancients. But if I can get a number of serious comments there will emerge a consensus of opinion that is likely to be of benefit to me. Head pats are no help and can leave me with the false impression that I'm making progress when I'm not.
But to each his own. Those who like to pat heads are in no way inhibited from doing so. Those who like to get head pats, need not ask for serious critiques. Choice is the key element in this.
As things stand at the moment on OS, anyone who asks for his/her blog to be criticized is thought to be fishing for compliments - and the responses they get have very little value in most cases. Too often, if someone wants to make a serious comment they find it better to do so in a PM. This may be helpful to that particular blog writer but is no help to those of us who can learn a lot by reading good critiques made on others' blogs.
Thanks for your input!
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He is now making allegations that I have, in the past, harassed female members on OS. I will be forwarding his allegations to my lawyer with a view to taking legal action if he so advises. This is out and out slander.
I average maybe a couple hundred readers per post, not the thousands like many of you. My audience comes from posting on Facebook where I have many friends. In an effort to stop comments, I clicked on the no comments spot. I'm not looking for a pat, validation, or correction of my grammar. So, I ask, can't we all just get along?
There are a lot of writer's workshops around and it would be easy to set other ones up if that's what people want to do. But it's not my understanding of what OS is--which is a place to blog. I'm new here, but it nearly always feels like a congenial place. I'd hate to see that get lost.
Ah, if only we could!!
jlsathre,
OS is many things to many people and serves a variety of purposes. Among those purposes is that it is a place where a good number of us first attempt writing for public consumption. As has been pointed out already, a few of us have gone on to greater things from this humble beginning.
I doubt that many of us here would like to see OS considered as a certain specific kind of box that we must feel obligated to fit into.
People come here for a variety of reasons and get many different kinds of value from doing so. Among the different people who come here are some aspiring writers. Some are also knowledgeable, competent, professional writers. Some don't consider themselves to be writers at all. Those of us who are trying to better our writing skills can gain much from the opinions of those who read what we write here. I see no harm in us asking for such criticism of our writing when we wish to. I cannot see that this subverts or changes OS in any way.
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I thank you, and others who have expressed the same sentiments either here or in PMs, from the bottom of my heart. As we all probably know, nasty personal attacks do have a discouraging effect on us if we care at all about the opinions of others. It is only through the generosity of you, and others like you, that we can overcome those effects. I hope that you will offer Snippy the benefits of your critique. She has had the courage to be one of the first - if not THE first to ask for critiques on her recent blog.
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I simply don't read much here anymore because the overall quality has deteriorated to the point that I usually can't get past the first paragraph of most posts. People who call themselves writers should be able to learn from other writers, and should have enough pride in their craft to learn the basics of grammar and spelling and syntax. If a "writer" isn't willing to make even a token effort, I'll not waste my time on them either. Just my opinion of course.
......and one that is shared by a good number of us judging by the comments and PMs this blog has generated. Thank you for adding your cool, calm assessment of this blog. It is heartening to have such as yourself make such an assessment.
My sincere thanks.....
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Typos, typos, thy name is skypixiezero!!
That should read "...... one such as yourself....."
;-)
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"It's the Full Moon FRed(tm)."
Personally I can only hold 23 handBags at dawn so will just look in the mirror when I need to piss someone orf.
Keep up the good work.
The veil was just too thin that time. Comment deleted.
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If you don't bring your own purse to the field of honour at dawn, you could hold one more.
Thanks Rodney!
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I enjoy criticism from friends. It always helps. And there it is.
I write like shit.
But a friend from my rock star days still lives in London and works for the BBC. He had his boss, who is in charge of mini series, look at my Jewish Mafia stories and we are now in talks.
I misspell. My grammar sucks. My structure sucks.
It isn't important to me when I read a post. I know what they mean. The point is do I get it? Have I gotten the heart of their message?
So I'm living proof that while it is always best to be your own English teacher, this is basically an informal forum for writers who may want to hone their skills, or inform, or teach, or let it all hang out. I rarely take anything personal.
So see you in the funny papers.
Cheers!
Since very few of us have "friends from our rock star days" who can help us out with introductions to highly placed people in the entertainment industry, we have to try to do it the old fashioned way - y'know, hard work and slowly, painfully learning our craft while sweating blood every step of the way.
If you can get a gig like that and your writing is really as bad as you say it is then it is clear why that industry is producing such unmitigated crap. Oh, it's not your fault. That industry has been hiring non-writers for decades. If it pays you what you want, why just jump right in. You'll be, as much as any of that sort, able to call yourself a "pro" writer! (Some people use the unkind term "hack.")
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You wouldn't happen to know why Paust CC'd you a copy of his nasty e-mail to me, would you?
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I was not going to post anything but I want you to know why I hug everyone.
I just posted this on Lea's blog about her cancer survival anniversary:
Lea,
Having survived two bouts of cancer I appreciate everything. Whatever I have now is icing on the cake, so I share my joy of life. A lot of people cannot understand me; why I hug every single person I meet in real life and in my comments.
I want to express to you the joy of being alive and the love I have. Life is a gift and if you get a couple more chances- well spread the love. And to those that do not understand I have nothing for you.
But to you my dear Lea I understand and I share my joy with you that you are alive and okay. Nothing but 100% love.
So skypixie: Thank you for your comment about 'my comments' but I will never change. I appreciate your input.
Happy 2012!
HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
THANK YOU, Linda, for posting with all your long characteristic many GGGGGGGG's! For me, they were always like a part of a person's individual choice of avatar. A kind of ?"persona style"? for (on) Open Salon.
Me, I'm a thinskinned 99% cyberklutz. O.K.? Got that? The 99% part refers to the fact that I don't have, and can't afford to buy, equipments for making pretty blogsites (much less incorporating photos or videos & etc.). [I'm also OLD, though both Sky and Jan Sand have been giving me goodhumored comments on that topic from time to time; will perhaps soon enlist Dr. William ;-)]
Just wanted to tell you I was deLIGHTED to find all your many GGGGGs on this comment, 'cuz last time I checked on some of your comments you seemed to me not to be using them. Relieved to find them back!
-/-/-
Back to Sky:
I am REALLY interested in all your conceptual comments and proposals! But if you put them forth in an Open Salon post open to comments from all sorts of us ?weirdos? -- how on earth can you (without wanting to stir up bad feelings from earlier exchanges) "herd all the cats" of people who read what you've posted and then comment -- perhaps as much out of reactivity (the "name of the game" of cybercomments?) as out of the good long serious thought that went into your initial blog?
Jes, as tis sometimes said, "sayin'" (for the moment) and thanks to all of you, my ?weird and wonderful? Open Salon cybercommunity.........
Another thing I've learned from critiquing other people's work -- whether it's prose, poetry or lyrics -- if I have a serious criticism of someone's writing, I prefer to correct them privately. Public criticism tends to lead to public defensiveness; and in that event, no one wins.
These rules do not apply to punditry, which is in essence merely opinion. In that case, I operate on the dictum that opinions are like assholes -- everybody's got one, and I have no compunction about telling someone they have their head up theirs.
For the record, in every single one of my comments I was civil, did not use foul language and tried in excruciating detail to explain why I disagreed with you.
You solicited opinions. You did not state that you'd only let stand the ones that were in line with yours.
You've proven that you can dish it out but you can't take it. You accused me of personally attacking you which wasn't the case - and even if it was, are you truly such a pusillanimous, overly sensitive, fragile little hothouse flower that you can't let a critical comment stand?
Jesus Christ (DO NOT say that offends since you're an atheist), I've seen some of your comments on other bloggers' posts. Your rough language and your unpleasant remarks wouldn't last a Montreal minute on your own thread. Hypocrite. (Yes sky, that was an attack in case you were scratching behind your ears with your hind leg, debating.)
Here's a question anyone who sees this might like to ponder before he smacks delete yet again in fur-filled fit of fury; why is is that those who ask for feedback inevitably get in a comment-deleting snit when they don't like what they're hearing? And why does it seem like they're usually men? Just wonderin...
Ironically, sky's actions have proven that what he's asking for in his post - criticism - is a bad, bad idea.
I'll let this one stand. It proves, beyond any shadow of a doubt that you have some personal vendetta going against me and that you are an out-and-out liar.
I DID NOT delete 2 out of 3 of your comments. I deleted 1 out of 5 of your comments. That one was deleted because of your scurrilous attack on me - not on the idea in question - on me personally. You are not the only one who has had a comment deleted in this thread for this reason. That you included a brief mention of the concept in one of your comments did not change the fact that what you wrote in your comment, that I deleted, was not about the idea at all.
I cannot imagine what you and your cohorts think you are about. The simple suggestion that some people might get value from asking for a serious critique of a blog they've posted - as opposed to sweet little, but unhelpful, pats on the head - seems to have driven you three absolutely nuts!
Why should that be? What is there about the concept of some bloggers here wanting to ask for the opinions of other bloggers that drives you three up the wall? And not just up the wall enough to say that it is, in your opinion, a bad idea, but up the wall enough to lead you to make ad hominem attacks on me instead of even criticizing the idea itself.
Are you three so fearful of getting a serious critique once in a while that you don't want anyone to ever, ever do such a thing? Are you so in love with yourselves that all you ever want to hear is compliments? And even if that were true, what the heck is it to you if others want to get such feedback? Did anyone say that you'd have to ask for any such yourself? Or to offer any?
Why don't you lot read some of the other comments? I think you'll find that a great many other people think that some of your comments here have been "over the top", to quote one commenter.
And as to your smarmy slap at "men"; you might notice that fully half of the supporters of this idea are women. And before you call me unable to take the heat, you might want to note that one of your cohorts posted a skanky blog about this and closed comments on it in the most cowardly act of all. I guess when his attempt to bully me on behalf of his buddy didn't work he decided to try a "hit-and-run" tactic. Considering that he has almost no readers, it was laughable. His buddy who does, deservedly, have a great many readers, could have done much better with that than he could ever do.
You folks is plumb weird, y'know?
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I've "workshopped" some pieces on OS and have learned from the experience. I got amazing critiques.
IT'S KIND OF STUPIDLY SIMPLE.
There is no "us" or "them" - you are who you are just as I am this moniker - my initials - peering from behind Emily Dickinson's gravestone wearing devil horns.
LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE.
Every time somebody brings this up we get an us vs them thing going...I suppose I must be us because I am not them. This is in no way comforting to me.
It's almost too rich to point out that we are all of the above.
Personally, I'm tired of this argument, that an elite class makes the rules and victimizes the citizens...it's a straw man that should have been burnt a long time ago.
I, personally, think it is weird to post every day. I, personally think commenting to each comment is reprehensible when it is obvious you are doing it to stay in the feed. I, personally, get disgusted when comments turn into "Another great post, my friend." rather than: well, let's just say that everyone should follow Owl's example in leaving comments.
Owl makes it an art form, and we should all try as hard...and maybe write less and support, really support, more.
I don't even get why this was even slightly controversial.
But I am a cheap five dollar whore for a dust up.
Even one as stupid as this.
Very becoming and pointed. Ideal for OS and deUvver place.
Do they retract?
Regarding your comment about "serious criticism is welcome and wanted" may I add that sometimes you bite harder than 'some' souls can accept or handle easily. Personally I like it but some find it a tad harsh. In a small way I think you can sometimes scare the sh*t out of the other cats my friend. No offence intended just a perspicacious point of view.
"FRed(tm) g,g,yahoo Perspicacious please Boy."
Many thanks for coming by. Yeah, who would have expected to be attacked over something like this!
CreekEnd,
I just knew that you'd love that 'perspicacious' if I stuck it in there!
Your mention that I sometimes "bite a bit too hard" is definitely a valid critique. I do seem to have a way of not beating round the bush that is too direct for some folks taste. A good friend who is a qualified Australian shrink, took a look at this and gave me some advice that I think I'll keep in mind.
This will give me a hard time, though. When someone puts an unripe apple in front of me, and expects a comment, I see little purpose in saying much more than, "It's too green to eat yet."
Apparently what I'm supposed to do is compliment that person on how beautifully the apple has been polished, on its great size, and on what a great apple it will be when it ripens fully, BEFORE I say, "It's too green to eat yet, dummy!" As I understand the psychology, the toast won't mind you biting it if you butter it up well first. We'll see.
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Kick arse - life's too short.
However, the comeBAcks can be a bitch.
Second thoughts - blood pressure is too volatile.
Perfection is like Capitalism - a useful tool.