Eschew Obfuscation - Espouse Elucidation

Freedom of Speech Doesn't Ensure Freedom After Speech
NOVEMBER 14, 2012 10:20PM

OK Lefties - Let's See What You've Got

Rate: 7 Flag

We here on OS have read dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of lists of grievances about the Republicans and the Democrats, brought to us by our friendly neighbourhood leftists/socialists/progressives. We've read those blogs, time and time again. You're right, the evils that you catalogue are indeed horrendous. You know that, and now we too know that.
Soooooo........., let up already. We get it. We hear you. We feel the same outrage that you feel. We too know that "somethng must be done" about all that. We don't need any more lists of evil actions committed by this one or that one or this group or that group. We KNOW that this is not the way things are supposed to be. Thank you for telling us but it's losing its impact with constant iteration, y'know?
Now it's time for the next step in your 'progressive' rhetoric. The step where you tell us how you'd handle things if you gained control of society; if we elected you as the government.  We don't want to hear the equivalent of, "we'd do things differently than 'they' do." We assume that.
We need to hear what you'd actually do. How you'd organize the society. Not how you'd handle international affairs so much, although they have importance that cannot be overlooked, but more about things that make up our daily lives.
How do we earn a living? What kind of health care will we get? What retirement age can we expect? How do our kids get a decent education? What economic system will you institute? Will we be able to open a small business? Will the big-box stores be wage and price controlled? Will the off-shoring of jobs continue? How will you stop it? What kind of taxes will we pay? What will we get for that money? Etc., etc.
Do you see what I'm driving at? How will we live? What kind of life will we have?  Will we be treated justly? How will you ensure that? What I'm looking for here dear leftists and socialists, is the nuts and bolts of the world we'll live in if we elect you to run things. This is the important stuff, y'know; not that international whatever. 
We've listened to your criticizms of the present regime. We agree with many of those criticizms. But, so far, all you've told us is that you wouldn't do what "they" are doing. Not what you will actually do. We need to know that, don't ya think? 
I hope all you lefties are reading this, because you've got some questions to answer. We aren't likely to vote you into office withut those answers so just y'all get your act together and fill us in, please. In detail, if you don't mind.
It's time - it's past time - that you did so.
Thank you...... 

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I rather imagine that it would all be done in much the same way they do things in France, Germany, Denmark, New Zealand, and twenty other progressive socialist governments and economies function... once you eliminate the worship of unregulated wealth and quit pissing and moaning about corruption and bureaucracy, things settle down and we all end up living pretty much like Canadians. Eh? R&R ;-)
A lot of Sweden would be a good place to start as a model.
- jmac,
How interesting that you consider Canada a socialist country. If you know as much about the other four you named and the "twenty" you didn't, as you do about Canada, you're lucky you can spell their names!

But you have still NOT SAID ONE WORD about what socialism would bring to America. Pointing at other countries - who all have very different systems - and saying that it would "be done pretty much the same way" as they do it, is just an alternate way of pointing at how the major parties of the US do things now and saying, "not like them guys."

You did the same as jamc. No answer, just weasel words as you slip quickly out the side door.

This might make you feel very clever but it guarantees that you'll never govern the US.

Fact is most of you "socialists" don't know diddley-squat about socialism or what you'd actually want to try to do if you were ever given the chance to govern. ALL you know is how to blame capitalism for everything from the state of the economy to your latest hangnail.

Every one of the countries you and jmac named use a capitalist economic system. Yeah, that evil capitalist system that you hate so much. Fact is, there is no such thing as a socialist economic system. Do you know why there is no socialist economic system? Because socialism is a SOCIAL system... NOT an economic system! (you'd think the very name would have given you a clue about that).

Truthfully, you're incompetent to govern. You seem not to know the difference between an economic system and a social system.

And you want people to "wise up" and vote for you?!! Or join you in a "revolution" that would put you in positions of leadership?

Not bloody likely.......

Right on Sky. Rated.

Whining and blind belief in 'I am right and you are wrong' is one-dimensional thinking. Show us your plan, whiners. We have open minds and would seriously evaluate the merits of your plan.
Right on Sky. Rated.

Whining and blind belief in 'I am right and you are wrong' is one-dimensional thinking. Show us your plan, whiners. We have open minds and would seriously evaluate the merits of your plan.
Right on Sky. Rated.
Whining and blind belief in I'm right, you're wrong is one-dimensional thinking. Show us your plan, whiners. We have open minds and would seriously evaluate the merits of your plan.
free smokes and whiskey!!!!!!
Hi Lyle!


Right on!

From where? And who? And how? And what kind? And who makes the run for it? What have you got for the hang-overs after? What about the empties?

Are you SURE you've thought this out carefully?

Thank you for making this challenge. I await brilliant responses ever so eagerly..........
ouch man! what are you, a bully boy, picking on socialists?
who even the hell knows what Pure socialism would be?
It is like asking, what would Pure Communism, or Pure
or Pure Aristocracy (of souls..)
These ideals are there for some reason.
Down and dirty dealings among men and women of good conscience
often access these pure ideals.
I dunno . They keep asking me, are you better off than u were
500 yrs ago.
a guy gotta say yes to that!
You sound like Obama at the Press Conference asking for other ideas. He wants us all to work together. China says there is no way they are going to copy the ideas of the West. I think it is attitude and tone of voice that counts. You get more bees with honey than vinegar. Can't we all just get along and help each other?
James ME. I read Your comment @ Tinks.
I Think Porn Is War. Bloody Bodies Smell.
Flies, Maggot and Vultures Pluck Out Eyes.

Humans -Sprawled out in un-Natural Position.
Humans . . . No Think We are Exempt Either.
I've seen Dead Water Rice Plough H2-o Buffalo.
Killers in the military Initiate Bloody Pornography.
I will Visit Rose and order a Bowl Of Noodle Soup.
I get a one-half sandwich. Tofu with Rye is Delicious.
Thrown down the gauntlet have you, sky?! I accept and in future posts will try to be more presciptive than descriptive. But for now I think it's important to lay down some principles, the first being that I prefer social democracy to laissez faire. That is because the economy is a lot more multi-dimensional than conservatives want to let on with their crude division of the world into makers and takers and their linear view of economics where only investors create jobs and so the most important thing you can do is take care of these "job creators" who supposedly take care of us. That's not how you get prosperity. Economies are ecosystems kept in balance, with equalibriums between buyers and sellers, producers and consumers, makers and takers. And that is why raising taxes on the rich is such a bad thing to do in a recession. That's the first thing. The second is that we should look at the free market as a tool and not as a religion or even a God. It is not omnipotent. It is not a force of nature like gravity. It often fails. And it often does not even exist, since when we say "let the market decide" we are really talking about letting some oligarch who IS the market decide. That's all for now.

Yup..... me too!

Look a wee bit closer my friend. I asked nothing about "Pure Socialism." I asked about day-to-day life.

Oh. Yeah. The Peter Pan solution. Try this one; you'll love it......

Oh my! I can see the political experience showing. So you "prefer social democracy to laissez faire", do you? Gee, Teddy, that's nice. Do you prefer women to Cadillacs too? The last time I looked "social democracy" was a social concept and laissez faire was an economic one. Are we mixing apples and grandfather clocks up here a wee tad?

This has ever been part of the problem in the US; y'all can't seem to keep your social system straight from your economic system. You mix up "democracy" with "capitalism" and "social assistance" with "free-loading" and "government bailouts with "strong and independent corporations."

With all that confusing of one thing for another it's a wonder your national leaders don't try to eat their dinner through their anus.

Let me be clear; I'm not taking a poke at socialism. I'm taking a poke at "socialists" who have no idea at all what socialism (or any social system) is all about but who have this lovely warm fuzzy feeling that we all ought to get along and be nice to each other.

I'm not against that but I'd like to know how I'm going to earn my dinner and feed my kids. I'd like to know what kind of medical care I can expect and how the doctors will get educated. Y'know..... silly, unimportant things that fall into the category of "practical". Or should I be sticking with airy-fairy 'theory'?

Looking forward to your input with great interest.

well i read it very close, but i still got all ornery
and mentioned pure socialism.
the way it works today? socialism? in europe?
is that what we dumb damnfool americans are discussing?
(american leftists occupy one part of the bar curve
as do american rightists...)
oh europe. germany rules economically.
is THAT socialism? this
horrifically scarred nation
doing its thing?
as it has ever done. since last century....

europe might do well to get united (ha).

so might the united states of america.
no. they are not entitled to plans for a good america, because they don't have, and don't want, the power to direct their society. they want a good fairy to take over and look after them. they know their place, on their knees, and whining.
Don't give up so easily, peeps. My thots:

a) it takes a long time for a successful transition, and it depends more than anything on a shift in consciousness to understanding that we need to take care of one another. When it has been imposed suddenly it has resulted in tragedy - Stalin and Mao killed many times more innocents than Hitler with fanatical ideology. People who demand immediate significant redistribution of wealth fail to realize this.
b) such seismic changes can take a long time to come about. European countries did not suddenly get leftist governments after WWII; the basics of social solidarity developed throughout the industrial revolution. The closest the US has come to solidarity was during the Great Depression, and I suppose we can say that it didn't stick around for long once the war was over.
c) there can be a snowball effect, as in Western Europe - even "good" countries like Holland, Denmark and Sweden were aggressive capitalist colonial powers and it took a war that took them to the brink of extinction to understand the power of the masses for good or for evil.
d) dictators cannot be allowed to gain control, so the basics of a democratic system and a defanged military are essentials. Can we assume this can be the case in the US? I (mis)quote Zhou En-Lai..."too soon to tell".

Well, I've only mentioned a few "pre-conditions" toward the goal of becoming a more humane society. No "socialist" country is perfect - we can only hope to improve the numbers , which will still leave a lot of unhappy folks in the minority. And it's an evil world we live in; maybe someone can look up the percentage of France's or Sweden's GDP that comes from sales of armaments.

Thanks for your very good comments.

You will have noticed that none of the "socialists" here on OS have taken up the gauntlet and offered any description of what their vision of a socialist society would be like. This is not surprising. I was involved in socialism before most of these wee puppies were born. I know that they cannot do so.

Again and again I've watched, and listened, to some of the great socialist 'leaders' in my country. It took a lot of years before I realized that all their socialist rant was simply holding up a mirror to people of what the people would consider good at any given time, and telling them that "this is what socialism is." They, of course, coupled that with, "and this is what socialism will do away with" in reference to any complaints people had about the present system.

But then, as now, none of them ever, ever, ever lay out the structure of their socialist system. Never do they talk about the nuts & bolts of how it will be organized and structured and built and operated. I have come to realize that socialism is actually a myth. It is not a real concept but is instead only a reflection of "all good things" that people would like to see. There is no plan. There is no map. There is no notion of what it would look like. It is, in fact, just another damned religion.

The truth is that we are free to design and develop any SOCIAL system that we want to have. But as al lomis has pointed out repeatedly, people don't want to get involved in that. They want to have it handed to them on a silver platter while being told that they are wonderful for accepting it. Well, they're in for a big surprise because.... THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH!

If we want a better social system, we need to create one. We need to determine what such a system ought to do for the citizens and what its limits are. We need to decide whether it will place 'society' above the citizens - as in communism - or place it below the citizens, and serve them in all respects, or be a system that people can voluntarily opt into or out of at their own discretion.

We also need to chose an economic system for that new society. I, personally, like capitalism. But capitalism, like fire, is a great servant when controlled strictly and made to serve the society, and is a horrible master (as we can readily see) when it gets control of the social system and tries to force the social system to operate on the principles of an economic system.

Those two systems are not 'equal'. The social system must always use the economic system as a tool with which to meet the needs of the people of the society. The tool must never set the agenda. That's not its job and it cannot do that job well at all.

So long as the citizens continue to act like sheeple and refuse to take any responsibility for designing, building, and operating a society of their choosing, then that's how long this mess we have now will go on growing and gobbling up everything of value while devaluing the very people who have created that wealth.

I am overjoyed to see how co-ops are beginning to really catch on. In this way we can avoid the horror of a bloody class war and the destruction of the national and industrial infrastructure upon which modern people are so dependent. In time such co-ops can replace the present predatory greed form of capitalism with an equitable and well controlled form of it.
@al loomis might like to see this. Just a wee ray of sunshine in a gloomy time.......

[r] sky, I posted this on your current blog, but meant it for this one!

lambert at correntewire's 12 word platform:

1. Medicare for All

2. End the Wars

3. Tax the Rich

4. A Jobs Guarantee

Of course, my Green friend Jill Stein was fully committed to all four.

best, libby
I'd love to see the cooperative movement growing again. I was practically raised with co-ops but have seen the movement decline in recent decades, at least in the USA. Maybe people have been afraid of the "socialistic" implications of mutual assistance. Maybe the notion of "win-win" has actually become a negative one....
I responded to it on the other blog.

Those co-ops you remember aren't quite dead yet! 31,000,000 members in the US. Check this out.....