“The spirit gone, man is garbage. That was Snowden's secret."

Snowden

Snowden
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Friend of all Frank's (including Francis), Dead crewman from Heller's Novel, lover of nature and art.

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Salon.com
FEBRUARY 8, 2013 3:38PM

Shooting Shooters: Yes We Can!

Rate: 6 Flag

          Man, I banged those mud squab when I was a boy. Our little weapons were purchased by the NRA, and we learned how to use them. We paid penny a shot and picked up our little blocks that had the ammo stuck in them like cribbage pegs, and blasted that skeet like nothing.

            I had learned how to shoot before boy scouts, but not well. When I was 9, I could have killed Charile when I swung the pistol around with both hands on the hammer as I struggled to cock it. I was a rifleman after that. Before I drove a car I could nail three doves with three shots as they came in to roost, that was until Bob almost blew off his own foot with his twelve guage. Kind of took the fun out of feeding the rats. But I did get on the range one last time and won the camp shoot, as out of practice I was, even.

              I never thought of shooting connected to killing, the birds we shot ...well to us they didn't count. The rats were quite happy to eat them,  and it there were thousands of them, with no hawks left to kill them because of  DDT. Never saw a hawk on that marsh then. But now is a different story.

               My friends and I were highly prepared to do just about what ever it took to get us home from anyplace we might have been sent. In my case that didn't involve shooting...anything, ever. As I grew older I regreted killing those doves, and now cannot kill anything that is not trying to kill me. I am quite sure that I could do that without a rifle.

                 I do not think peacekeepers need to carry. I do not want my law enforcers to be shooters. I want them to enforce the law. I want them to observe and act, always in such a manner that is well thought out. Effective law enforcement - truly effective law enforcement, can be achieved without violence in almost all situations. The rare few cases where weapons might be required should be well supervised and performed by experts, not by the same people who failed to keep the peace without having to resort to violence.

                   I see as much wrong with people who feel the need to carry as the deciders  see in those who they have determined to be unfit to. When folks choose might as the deciding  factor in too many times and places they stop seeing right vs. wrong and become fixated on weak vs. strong. I see this fork in the road, where the role of peacemaker diverges from that of enforcer. In places like L.A. peacemakers need to be on the beat, unarmed, with no better protection than the people who live there. 

                    Shooting shooters is easy. Preventing weapons from appearing in urban America is not impossible at all, if that was the goal. But that is not the goal. Turning urban America into a war zone might not have been the goal of our policy makers - but by not growing beyond our failure, what are we communicating to, not just America, but to the rest of the world? Have we replaced the gas chambers of our Eugenics policy with this? Yes we have. 

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great post-

"I do not think peacekeepers need to carry. I do not want my law enforcers to be shooters. I want them to enforce the law. I want them to observe and act, always in such a manner that is well thought out. Effective law enforcement - truly effective law enforcement, can be achieved without violence in almost all situations. The rare few cases where weapons might be required should be well supervised and performed by experts, not by the same people who failed to keep the peace without having to resort to violence."

amen

actually amen to all of this- the only problem is uninventing violence, but if we were interested in that, we wouldn't be doing a "War" on drugs- we'd be tending to the victims.

Ditto "terror"

Ditto "poverty"

-R-
Thanks for reading Herr Rude! Uninvent violence...! Violence is the glue that keeps this once paradise we call America from drifting just the slightest bit toward the ideal, and away from the pre WWII "Potterville" version of America that we have once again returned to.
Police in New Zealand don't carry guns. If some insane person starts shooting people or holding them hostage, a specially trained armed defenders squad is called.
Whenever we, my ol' lady and I, hear about the latest mass-shooting, the first thing I always think of is, "Did they kill the shooter?" And always, whenever I hear that they took the shooter into custody alive, I am astonished, and I wonder at and also admire, the discipline those officers had...
For years noww, I've maintained that if I was a first responder to such a scene, the shooter wouldn't be left alive. Which brings me to this; if I were on a jury, and the case was the guilt or innocence of someone who killed such a monster, when asked, "How do you find the defendant?", my answer would unfailingly be, "Not guilty."
There's our deterrance; there's our vigilance; there is the way, in the future, such maniacs will be handled.
Doc and Steve, thanks for reading and commenting.
Doc: The stats do not lie. NZ is not at war with its poor. Thanks for adding this - funny how creative comparisons are almost absent from the debate.

Steve: I Agree with you on dispatching a violently insane murderer - I believe that it is humane. I can deal with that. But I do not think this is a deterrant at all. Death by cop is cowards form of suicide, like it or not, it seems to be in fashion. I beleive we have the tools to prevent the vast majority of gun violence simply by changing the rules in the street - taking it down a few notches - listening, and working with people, before they start shooting at each other.
I don't really believe that most of these mass shooters want death by cop. I believe, however, that if we can somehow cobble together a few timely kills of such insane, violent monsters, we can, as a society, send out a strong message to those dormant monsters waiting in the wings.
Nah. If I was a cop that killed one of these monsters, I would expect a jury of my peers to find me not guilty, by reason of resisting insanity.
I agree that almost every situation involving peace officers can and should be handled without violence. Violence is the domain of people who have undeveloped empathy and tolerance for what are often peaceful dissenting views.

But violence is everywhere in our society. And it is just as common on the left as those who feel the need to carry not for reasons of safety but for reasons of power. Albeit, the left's violence is often more covert. And that means it is more sinister. One is the constant chiding of people who wish to have their own religious beliefs. A faux intellectualism is used to intimate class-based intelligence and superiority.

I am as close to an avowed pacifist as one can probably be without actually being one. And the reason I am not is because I recognize that those who are disconnected from their humanity cannot be reasoned with. And, we cannot appeal to their humanity. So, there are certainly times when megalomania, narcissists, psychopaths and the like must be resisted with force. Because violence is the only thing they understand. And, that is why I have a friend who is actually a pacifist Buddhist who has a license for a shotgun to protect his home and family.

Jesus said turn the other cheek. But, Hindu scripture recognizes that force often must be resisted or surely we shall all die.
Green Party Party Platform: Gun Control


1. Restrict police use of guns and all forms of control weapons

2. Restrict police use of guns and all forms of control weapons. Restraining weapons and methods such as pepper spray, taser guns, stun belts, gas, choke holds and tight hand cuffs are greatly over-used. States must pass legislation that reduce and restrict police possession and use of such methods of control.
Source: 2008 Green Party Platform from 2008 Chicago Convention , Jul 13, 2008
Support Brady Bill & thoughtful gun control

3. We support the ‘Brady Bill’ and thoughtful, carefully considered GUN CONTROL.
Source: Green Party Platform, at 2000 National Convention , Jun 25, 2000


The Green Party STILL has it correct.
Thanks for thinking, reading, and commenting: Steve, TL, Amy

Steve: Mass Murders might not all be suicidal, but it seems to me that shooters lean toward that direction. I do not know if you have ever taken a life, or contributed to the taking of one. To be able to do so without causing harm to oneself requires a skill set that most do not have, or want. I would have not problem defending myself, but would not dispatch man or beast is there was any way to avoid it, even knowing full well that the creature might kill at the earliest opportunity. Self defense. I defer the hunting and killing to experts - and pray for their souls. When I was young I faced and dispatched the enemy to prove to myself that I was not a coward. A few years later I could accept a first blow, and walk away. For years, When I came to that fork in the road, I looked the beast in the eyes, saw the fear, and let him run. The last time I was confronted such a situation, I turned my back, but held my ground, fully prepared to prevail or die trying. I care not to define my life solely in terms of such events, but fully admit how hard it has been to recover from each of them.

TL : Hindu's right. I can turn the cheek - but cannot outrun a bullet.

Amy: correct, and why not? because guns kill people,mainly poor non white people. thats why.
Well articulated. What I meant was not dispatching a mass shooter as a preemptive act, but rather, after the fact, say, after the triggerman has been subdued; killing anyone was is bad, terrible; but killing 10? 20? kids? Nah. Let's not fool around with a trial. Let's end it here. No, I have never taken a life, and I believe myself fortunate to have an excellent reservoir of compassion for my fellow man, but, at some point, as these 'incidents' or tragedies' began to pile up like one big ugly chain-reaction pile up on a foggy Interstate, my mind has been changed. It should be evident by now that trying such criminals -to show the world how civilized we are- is no deterrant.