As a registered Democrat, my alarm is increasing exponentially each day as I watch the Senate working to pass their version of health care “reform” this week. I have quit faxing my Congressman, Senator, or the White House. I no longer believe they have any desire to hear from me.
They have hijacked my America.
Paul Krugman has supported the argument we should take the crumbs of what remains of this bill, which he agrees is blackmail, and view it as incremental progress instead. This strikes me as fancy double talk. He goes on to recommend passing this bill while working for more change in the future. He sites Social Security as his pious example, “it’s now the bedrock of retirement stability for the vast majority of Americans.” When did this occur with Social Security? Has it not been deemed the third rail of politics for two decades due to it being financial unsustainable? This is his stellar example for pushing reform through? Why are so many Democrats accepting this argument?
It is time to stop hiding behind the coat tails of our officials and pundits and to begin thinking for ourselves again.
Barack Obama has repackaged theThird Way of American capitalism, as noted by Greenwald (he calls corporatism), which is being underhandedly forced upon the American people. It is not free-market capitalism nor is it socialism. It is a hybrid of capitalism which we have seen in the past under privatization of military contracts – hence the blossoming of American Industrial complex Eisenhower so dubiously warned us about.
So, if you are a conservative and reading this, please don't grab hold of the idea that the other side of the aisle was superior. It just dished up the mess we are dealing with and obstructed any chances of meaningful policy passage, including health care reform. Swinging the pendulum back in the other direction will be equally, if not more, counterproductive.
This brand of capitalism, enforced by our government, provides all carrot and no stick for these corporations, the very ones who line the pockets of the campaigns for the power brokers who are elected to write the laws. So, in essence, corporations are now writing the laws and you are paying them to do it while they make a profit off of your taxes, except now you will be fined (with potential jail time) if you don’t buy into the additional taxes they are going to place on you for your substandard care, which will be voted in by the super Democratic 60 against your will even though you elected them into office making your vote now completely obsolete!
Would you like a side of bitter with that “screw you”?
While I want to believe Barack Obama is doing the best he can in light of the current congressional process, I am finding that harder and harder to swallow, especially considering he now claims he "didn't campaign on the public option." I believed he was sincere when he stated the following in his September 9th national address:
"My guiding principle is, and always has been, that consumers do better when there is choice and competition. Unfortunately, in 34 states, 75% of the insurance market is controlled by five or fewer companies. In Alabama, almost 90% is controlled by just one company. Without competition, the price of insurance goes up and the quality goes down. And it makes it easier for insurance companies to treat their customers badly - by cherry-picking the healthiest individuals and trying to drop the sickest; by overcharging small businesses who have no leverage; and by jacking up rates.”
If everything remains the same, then this bill does nothing to address the problems he himself outlines. Competition has not been addressed, quality has not been addressed, and the bill does the exact opposite of what he lays out is the issue with insurance market! So, he is either: looking for a political win without regard for the outcome to the American people, or he has just pulled a very fast bait and switch; in other words, he lied. If he does not veto this bill, he has just lost my support permanently.
The last stance I took to kill this bill was to sign a collective petition; you can find it here. Please take the time to sign it – your freedoms are under assault and your signature will show you take that seriously. This bill is being pushed through in the middle of the night, on the eve of a holiday where many people are traveling, in hopes that you won’t notice what is happening. I know you take your civil responsibilities more seriously than they have counted on.
The petition outlines the following issues with this bill:
1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not
2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS
3. After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses
4. Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court
5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays
6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins
7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others
8. Grants monopolies to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market
9. No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years
10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of four will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now
If this bill passes, I believe it is every single citizens civic responsibility, whether a Democrat or a Republican, to begin to prepare for an organized demonstration for a full return to the ideals of what this nation was founded on – protection of the rights and freedoms of the individual, government which acts on behalf of the people not against them (and any reform necessary to make that happen), and regulation of industry to ensure integral behavior.
*****
Eight years ago, almost to the day, a group of civilians foiled Richard Reid's plan to bomb American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami, a terrorist determined to hijack those people's pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Today, my America is being hijacked by the very people who claim to love it, the one's who voted unanimously to go to war in Iraq against the will of the United Nations instead of creating a rational plan to deal with this new terrorist threat. Here we are eight years later still in foreign wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and now with a new domestic threat on our horizon - the very people who sent us to war in the first place.
The time is now; we are the answer.
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Comments
Bumpety bump...
"...By all means, hang Senator Joe Lieberman in effigy." Krugman opens up by kissing ass so that the liberals would listen to him. Lieberman did everything but shoot Obama, and Obama said and done nothing about it. Both Krugman and Obama know why Lieberman is untouchable, and when Lieberman goes, someone with the same ideology will replace him. You watch.
I would like everyone/anyone to answer these three simple questions:
1. Do poor people deserve free healthcare and should those with no healthcare get free healthcare?
I leave that answer to your conscience.
2. Does America have the money to support free healthcare for every citizen who needs it?
Yes. The American people should ORDER their government to stop the wars, and reallocate the trillions of dollars saved to free healthcare.
3. Should Insurance companies exist?
I don't know; they are very lovely and extremely kind people.
This Nobel Laureate (Krugman) needs a job too; give him a break. He's a gofer for the insurance companies. Therefore, he is telling the people to take what they can get and to keep suffering because help is on the way, just not this Christmas. He never answers the above questions. Gofers had jobs when Bush was president and they will continue to have jabs with Obama; different President, different spin.
We voted for Obama; we love Obama; we respect Obama--the man is educated, polite and likable; he bowed to the Queen. So this is what they use to keep us down:
"IF YOU ARE AGAINST INSURANCE COMPANIES, THEN YOU HATE AND INSULT OBAMA."
It is exactly the same argument they made with the bailout: "Wall Street/banks IS the economy; what's good for Wall Street is good for the people."
The Obama problem is very simple, either he lied or when he became president he found out that the insurance companies are untouchable. That is it. There is nothing Obama or that corrupt Congress can do.
Yet, it's Christmas, may be God or his rich representatives in America can help the poor, you never know.
You make a solid argument: the logic is impeccable and the evidence is overwhelming.
Very well written, rated.
or,
Cheer Up
crank huh
a pilfering
moo flops
lame beast
fat cat flea
cat fat club
Ah! Ay! Ho!
bobble pew!
pew mean sit!
`
I am bantering.
`
You need to get a EP.
I nominate` Michelle.
The White House one.`
People are obligated to petition the highest level of the, so-called Powers That Be/Good/Bad.
Tots in white houses seem to now crawl on all fours, whores (not Michelle Obama. on eating tables.
Michelle exudes a `real genuine,
a kindness and warmth of Heart.
I met Michelle Obama.
She hugged Annabela,
That's my Grand child.
I'm smelly old Pa Pa.
Michelle shakes paw,
my daughter-in-law,
and shakes hand, dap.
She's like Abigail, huh?
Wife of President Adams?
Michelle has Barack's ear?
`
She's in the midst of belligerent, nasty, depraved, shivering frozen-
You/we all know ...
People aren't stupid as we`
LOOK!
Cold hearted war-mongers.
Unfortunately DCs cat house.
Savants woe, distinguished,
idiot banal wastrels esteem,
apology? We smell cat scat!
Not Sparking and Michelle.
You are fragrant and fresh.
`
DC=
Flimflams. Panhandle. hoe.
I hope to wish humanity,
Earth, water, and skies,
Pax.
Clean.
Clarity.
Sparking. You the hoot.
I hope you no say I toot.
You fun sane and crazy.
`
Politicos never smile.
Watch how they fake.
Pathetic white teeth.
`
I gotta go into West Virginia. Honest. There is a women who has one front tooth missing. I never asked her HOW did that HAPPEN?
It did just happened. Maybe her husband WHO left her two years ago? Her son is two years old. The single Mom is in her thirties. She makes $62.00 more that allowed to be granted her seasonal bonus "handout"
... POLICY...
?
Oh,
legislation by the august "leadership" in government roles say `
NO dare give her any free "hand-out"
"social service" policy guideline-
No free lunch? NO! No Soap?
She calls me up when she` CRY!
Yesterday - NO afford 20 Mule?
No. Buy 20- Mule Team BORAX?
She's a saint with no soap and HOPE!
She says electric will be shut off today!
She cried. But, I no scrub baby diaper!
`
This is no nightmare fantasy fiction.
I saw her in West Virginia. Sad face.
I said `You are having a rough day.
The woman with one tooth on/on.
I have only talked and helped 2x's.
I am not being a doo-gooder spiel.
The sad problems. Woe Plutocrat.
`
I was gonna do a new post. Later?
DC's palace dwellers are oblivious.
Greedy creeps can't even fake smile.
`
karma
P.S. My email is broke. And a PM?
It may seem I ignore. No. But know?
I am doing my best. I wish thee best.
And no, I never kiss` One tooth One.
Nature is amazing and so are humans.
banter.
Good morning.
It's gonna be wild.
We already had the so called support the banks give away, now we are doing the same thing for the healthcare, insurance, and big phrama corporations.
I feel the winds of change a-blowing here today.
I think you do too dear.
It is, as Krugman notes, a much better piece of legislation than anything that seemed possible just a few short years ago…and no matter how much some people rail against it, it IS a start.
I simply do not understand your argument: He (Krugman) goes on to recommend passing this bill while working for more change in the future. He sites Social Security as his pious example, “it’s now the bedrock of retirement stability for the vast majority of Americans.” When did this occur with Social Security? Has it not been deemed the third rail of politics for two decades due to it being financial unsustainable? This is his stellar example for pushing reform through? Why are so many Democrats accepting this argument?
Social Security did start out “highly imperfect and incomplete”…and it did “get better and more comprehensive” as the years went by. He is absolutely correct.
What is the point you were trying to raise here?
And as for Krugman’s argument: “Whereas flawed social insurance programs have tended to get better over time, the story of health reform suggests that rejecting an imperfect deal in the hope of eventually getting something better is a recipe for getting nothing at all. Not to put too fine a point on it, America would be in much better shape today if Democrats had cut a deal on health care with Richard Nixon, or if Bill Clinton had cut a deal with moderate Republicans back when they still existed.”…it is absolutely valid.
I understand your anger and frustration…but in my opinion, this is the best that could be obtained in today’s political environment…and better, it seems to me, to hold one’s nose and pass it than do what you advocate…throw the slice away because you cannot get the whole loaf.
I am not a Democrat...but the Democrats have not hijacked America. If anything, they are trying to wrest it back from people who have hijacked it. You would, in my opinion, be doing more for our country by recognizing that to be the case...and pitching in.
R~
I will go into civil, a wild and wonderful, West Virginia.
There one tooth single Mom wears scarf, mid-winter,
single mother of a two-year old child with a red, pink,
purple, and white sock-hat. She waits for a commuter,
a shuttle run bus.
She has sad eyes.
She hides midriff.
Who will feed her?
She wears a wool hat!
She'll be warm soon?
Wait until a summer?
She'll reveal midriffs?
I don't think so. poor.
She'll survive winter?
She has no fat on belly!
Buy her one fish hook?
She pierces belly-hole?
Mercy, empathy, care,
and toast two martini?
Woe to filthy-fat ill-ilk!
Social Security and Medicare are New Deal programs. Mess with that and I will lead a mob of white haired people carrying pitchforks to batter down your door. Healthcare reform that is not single payer, or at least contains a public option, is a New Democrat program and seems to enrich the rich, subsidize the poor and place the burden on the middle class.
How the New Deal policies that created America's large, but now declining, middle class got to be so unpopular with our governing class is beyond me. Maybe dead presidents had something to do with it!
My fancy pants politcal science professor son thinks that the Senate bill is the best we can realistically get. Meaning one that the insurance companies will not kill. Me, not so much.
My thought is: At some point…if we finally come to our senses here in America and really decent, much needed reform finally comes about…my guess is this moment will be considered “the beginning of that change.”
I have a lot of trouble thinking that if it never does come…people will point to this moment and say: That was the reason real reform never happened.
I doubt I will live long enough to be sure either way…but I, like your son the professor, have come down on the side of “Let’s pass it and consider it the best start today’s political environment allows.”
the word "quality" should NEVER be used to describe this country, or this world's health care...unless of course you are so cynical as to compare our health care with 3rd world countries which are still working on eradicating simple maladies.
No, this "health care" bill has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Health Care. This bill is nothing more than "Economic-recovery-through-insurance-reform". This bill will do NOTHING to save lives or reduce suffering. This bill, ANY bill that comes out of a Finance committee will ONLY ever endeavor to make sure that people do not go broke while suffering and dying.
And I don't blame the government. Period. I blame the ignorant, apathetic American people, who don't give a rat's ass of a flying flip about the fact that they are receiving dangerous poisons, which they mistakenly CALL health care, and don't care, so long as they can continue to recieve their dangerous poisons at lower and lower prices. Who on the planet would pay ANYTHING for dangerous poisons??
Sorry, folks. I feel no compassion or caring for anyone who bought into the BS Propoganda spewed by Obama OR congress about "health care reform". i have not supported this bill, nor will I support ANY bill that does not directly address the issues of the FDA and BigPharma. And THAT battle we lost a LONG time ago.
I read "a" bill sometime earlier in the fall ~ I haven't read this bill so any comments I would make are based on others interpretations. What I am frustrated about (like you) is the PROCESS by which this pile of crap gets delivered to us.
$3.3billion is the amount spent lobbying congress this year. THIS YEAR! Large chunks went to banking business and health care insurance issues. The America that Washington fought for, Lincoln died for, FDR spent his last ounce of energy for, my father sweat and bled in the South Pacific for and all of my brothers and my son served in the military for has been purchased on the cheap. So I am angry as you.
I think this bill will pass, and I think there will be a challenge to the Supreme Court regarding the forcing of uninsured people to buy a private product from a weakly regulated monopoly (in some states). Further, I dont see how Congress can when forcing us to buy something we may not want allow Nebraska to get it free. All these points, and they are not trivial, will result in challenges to the legality of this so-called "health care reform." Given that much of it doesn't get enacted until 2014, do you think that's intentional?
We are left with movement politics. I have honest Republican and Democratic friends who are disgusted with the state of the Republic and that gives me hope. However, it's not hard to call the present tilt fascism ~ the modern term of corporatism works too, but I'd rather we keep Mussolini's name so that our politicians have a famous photograph to contemplate (you know which one I mean).
As Ive been ranting about for some time now, watch how the SC comes down on "Citizens United vs, the FEC" to get a feel for what may be left to us ordinary citizens in terms of ownership of the "Of the people, by the people and for the people" government.
I admire your ability to continually see the power of the people still Thoth. It takes a courageous mind to see this and I admire this deeply whenever I encounter someone who will not compromise idealism for pragmatism.
You are a brother in proverbial arms - thank you for being a beacon of light in the middle of the madness.
Older/Exasperated: "Behind the scene "Bait and Switch," is what the American political process should be labeled as.Much like the ever-lasting shell game, the little pebble will seemingly disappear either by slight of hand, or mental confusion."
What an insightful statement. Thank you for making it OE! It is true, the politicians are counting on the continual mental confusion and exhaustion of the American people to line up as sheep and take their crumbs. I, for one, will not be doing this.
ART JAMES!:
"DC's palace dwellers are oblivious.
Greedy creeps can't even fake smile.
`
karma "
Karma indeed my friend. The soul of the politician is stagnant and growing mold! No homebrew or organic veggies for them! Wicked are the delirious of heart I tell you, they let their mind lead without remembering their heart in the process. This is a shell game, and we are the pawns. I for one will not let my America go down like that. ::love:: to you my friend.
I would rather take honest stock of the situation and make a plan for moving forward than whine and complain without any action. We can yell all day long about who is more to blame - W or Obama - we can never get inside their heads to ever truly know. I, personally, would rather place that energy towards the greater good of "doing something about it." So, essentially, we agree. Let's not split hairs over who is "more to blame."
For the record, I was an independent before this race and I will openly admit I believed Obama would do better than he has. My presidential voting record, which will also give you an idea of my age, is (Independent: 1, Republican: 1, Democrat: 3) So, as you can see, I keep an open mind. It is my plan, from here on out, to dissect the problems, the actions of the politicians (not the people themselves), and focus on what I can do to make a change. I hope you'll join me. And, thank you for your ENTHUSIASM!
Good piece. Depressing though. R
Janie!: Oops! I skipped you.
Well you skipped me also...and I am here as the result of an invitation you sent me in a PM.
You keep saying that we, the people, must order our government to give us what we want, and sadly, I keep telling you that it's not going to happen. People can only order in a democracy where they vote on every single issue. We live in a democratic republic where we choose people to vote for us. Thus, the mess we are in. Our forefathers never meant for us to have control of the government.
We vote in representatives who are not really interested in the country as a whole but are more interested in securing deals for their own little portion of the nation.
Also, as I've said before, we are a war time economy. That's how this nation makes money. Wars are never fought for ideals -- they are fought for "I" deals, meaning that politicos benefit from the manufacture of weapons and the rebuilding of countries in the aftermath of war.
Just sayin'
The only way to usurp democracy is to fool it's people... The only way to fool it's people is to steal it's media... Our media, now owned by 6 corporations(capitalist)... "The New Media Monopoly" by Bagdikian, is a good read... Operation Mockingbird was real, too few know of it( google worthy, if you don't )... Capitalist have no soul, and easily control this pop culture obsessed world... For this I am deeply troubled, sounds like we hum the same tune...
Keep this up and I'm gonna' post you on the news network site mon amie...RRR
NOW, that that's settled, stay in line....Ladies First...
Mission: Yes, I know you can feel the ::vibe:: Mission and I know you have lived the debacle. It is one thing to make commentary and pretend to know what this mess of health care is by "seeing it on the news", and it is a whole other thing to live it. This is why I have read and looked to Gandhi so extensively, because he put his money where his mouth was. He traveled the third class trains. He experienced the plight of his people. He walked with them. He didn't speak to them from a lofty place without the benefit of "knowing" which is another way of saying "enlightened". People substitute the sound bytes of television for this very important test - experience - the real kind. Thank you for coming by my friend.
Now FRANK: My first point is Krugman, in summation, describes social security as "the" financial bedrock for so many retirees in this country when for years politicians have been afraid to touch this "hot" issue because it is exactly the opposite - a fund which is unsustainable and shaky for retirement somewhere between 9 and 15 years (great article written in 2005 shows the predictions to have come true: http://www.fff.org/comment/com0503d.asp - this year is the first year no cost of living adjustment was made to the fund).
Now, he uses this example as a summation as to why we should take the crumbs of health care reform, because it is so "great." I disagree - it is not - and those living on it certainly don't think so, especially the elderly in need of health care (and I would guess Krugman isn't living on it). Again, lack of direct experience.
But, if you need more reasons, I will copy and paste my response from Thoth's blog, instead of pointing you there, as when I did that last time you accused me of blathering me on pointlessly. So, here they are:
"At its core, the bill would do two things. First, it would prohibit discrimination by insurance companies on the basis of medical condition or history: Americans could no longer be denied health insurance because of a pre-existing condition, or have their insurance canceled when they get sick. Second, the bill would provide substantial financial aid to those who don’t get insurance through their employers, as well as tax breaks for small employers that do provide insurance."
No, it wouldn't. This is the INSURANCE INDUSTRY people. They are beholdent to their shareholders, not the sick (as pointed out on MSNBC's August 16th's round table with former Senate majority leader Daschle and Maddow) and will continue in business practices which engage this way. Dean pointed out the triple cost to older Americans. Wait until you see what they are doing with the new parody law coming into effect in 2010 which is "supposed" to treat mental health like any other type of doctor visit rather than limiting the # of visits. Their solution? Go after the providers, who are barely making a margin with all the insurance rigamarole, and tell them at 20 visits they must fill out substantial paperwork waiting on preapproval for continued visits and if denied, any out of pocket costs falls to the provider/patient to figure out - typical claims negotiations. Number two, the tax breaks and coverage come from somewhere, and this new group of members will be dealt with the same unethical practices which have not been reigned in.
I am not advocating to throw the whole slice away because I can't get the whole loaf, that is your take on what I'm saying. Where have I ever said that? You are putting me in a camp with a bunch of other people on a "side" opposite of you because I don't agree with you.
I have said I believe they are hijacking America with the passage of this legislation, bringing on a new hybrid of Capitalism with smooth talking by packaging it as "reform", and doing so right beneath our noses. We need to wake up and wake up fast! We will now become the pawns many in the world have felt at the hands of the American goverment, except we are the ones signing off on it. Over and over again, I have shown, this is not reform. You have given nothing to show that is in way of a factual counter argument. Until then - you are just providing conjecture and continually repeating - "I could be wrong." Well, I don't think I'm wrong. For once, I am pretty damn sure I'm right even though I desperately don't want to be.
And each time, health care reform lost, the Congress did nothing for another ten years or more. Think about that.
Keep on informing!
Leave it to a woman to have this courage as the men bow down to be serfs! They are finding women to be the leaders all over the third world, it is time to see this happen at home. Good for you Sparking!
The people who hang out here are the disenfranchised and the disaffected. Those who are pleased with the way things are going are either too polite to say so, or don't blog here.
Most of my peers from sixties and seventies are either sold-out or burned-out, or both. As a group, we're jaundiced and therefore suspect, but we do have a perspective. which is sorely lacking in the reporting I've seen.
I wanted to present a small proposal about what we might do to change things...but then I decided that it would be rude to tack a six page comment onto Sparking's call to action.
Suffice it to say, then, that I share your outrage at the present system, and your remorse at having been fooled again. Not that we had much choice. I couldn't vote for McCain with Palin on the ticket. I Just Could Not Do That.
Your analysis of the health insurance scandal is prescient and precisely on target....but it's just oneof hydra's many heads.
To address one, we have to address them all. The system that was supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people, has become the system that takes FROM the people, AGAINST the people's will, and TO the detriment of their rights as citizens.
WE are now living in an era of minority rule, which was precisely what the founding persons were attempting to prevent and that's a very great error indeed.
I will post my modest proposal on my blog....watch out for it.
T.S. - you know the funny thing is, I think it has been closer to this than we would imagine all along, except now it "has pushed us all outside the lines" as you so aptly put it, and we can see it clearly. I embrace you as well. Thank you for your visit.
Frank - I appreciate this is the side you have come down on and I will just agree to disagree with you for all the reasons I have listed.
waaq135 - hmmm? Do you have a deal with the Democrats, too? Through NAFTA maybe?
Placebostudman- thank you kindly for your patience. "This bill, ANY bill that comes out of a Finance committee will ONLY ever endeavor to make sure that people do not go broke while suffering and dying." I concur - although it will fail in that endeavor, too. Additionally, your comments about the FDA and BIG Pharma are right on the money, and more to the source of the issue with the quality of care in this country, although outside of what I address in the scope of this piece. Thank you for your educated insights and powerful rhetoric.
I look forward to more from you kind sir, I too understand the real plight within the health care system, I have lived it. I think the real challenge we are facing is the systematic failure of our systems and the "band aids" are no longer working. This may actually work in the favor of truth.
Billy Glad - Interesting take - and I agree with one thing more than any other, "We have until then to turn universal health care into a 3rd rail they can't scrap." It is up to us.
I have not tried bossing you in any way…just as I have not hurled ad hominems at you the way you seem so intent on charging, Sparking. In fact, telling me to settle down is much closer to being bossy toward me than anything I’ve sent in your direction. And quite honestly, from the tenor of this post, you sound much more in need of settling down than I do…because I am calm and cool as a cucumber…and have a big smile on my face whenever I am interacting with my friends and acquaintances on OS. Of course, I don’t have a seven year old to contend with (just a cranky 19 year old cat who is trying to settle in my lap while I am writing…so perhaps that is understandable.
I was simply reminding you that I was here (in case you had missed my post) …especially since you made a special point of noting that you had missed someone else and hadn’t bothered to mention that you would be getting back to others when you had time. I wasn’t bossy or rude about it…just matter of fact.
Please be sure you give plenty of attention to other things before responding to me…I can easily be patient.
Now FRANK: My first point is Krugman, in summation, describes social security as "the" financial bedrock for so many retirees in this country when for years politicians have been afraid to touch this "hot" issue because it is exactly the opposite - a fund which is unsustainable and shaky for retirement somewhere between 9 and 15 years (great article written in 2005 shows the predictions to have come true:
Sparking…you can read as well as I. Krugman was using the Social Security analogy as an example of a safety net program that started out highly imperfect and incomplete…but went on to do the job most wanted it to do. He was saying that starting modestly and working to perfection is to be expected. And whether or not Social Security is shaky or not right now does not impact on the fact that it has been a bedrock for retirees since 1936. (It certainly has helped me!) He makes all that clear with his wording:
Bear in mind also the lessons of history: social insurance programs tend to start out highly imperfect and incomplete, but get better and more comprehensive as the years go by. Thus Social Security originally had huge gaps in coverage — and a majority of African-Americans, in particular, fell through those gaps. But it was improved over time, and it’s now the bedrock of retirement stability for the vast majority of Americans.
So his point that although today’s legislation in the health care reform is highly imperfect and incomplete…giving it a chance to be a foundation makes more sense than simply throwing everything out.
I want to emphasize that I acknowledge that the legislation is imperfect (to say the very least!)…but my point (and perhaps Krugman’s also) is that it can provide a base upon which a perfected model can be built. And it is my opinion, that doing that…passing it in the hopes of it providing a base…is the way to go.
I simply disagree with you and I am trying to present my opinion of disagreement in a polite and reasonable way.
As I said in other remarks here: If real reform ever comes…people of the future will point to this bill as the start…the base upon which the reform was built. If the forces of darkness get back in control and no real reform ever comes…I seriously doubt anyone will suggest that the passage of this bill is the reason for that lack.
There is no way I have treated you but RESPECTFULLY. If you are suggesting that I have done otherwise…please bring it to my attention and I will offer a sincere apology. But I say there are NO examples of me treating you other than courteously and respectfully.
I acknowledge that I did mention to one of the other posters that I though people on your side of the issue were doing more damage to the notion that we can be a better nation than some of the people who actually seem to be aiming in the direction of making us a lesser nation.
That was an opinion…and if you think it applied to you…and take enough umbrage at it to get into all this…well, you are off base there. It is a perfectly valid opinion…and it was not an ad hominem…and it was not even directed to you.
So these comments about how I’ve treated you are simply…misleading…to be as kind as I can about it.
You seem to be looking for me to apologize for being rude to you....but I haven't been. I certainly am allowed by the rules of courtesy to defend my positions.
trig palin - thank you, me too.
john blumenthal - sorry to depress you my friend. It does the beg question, why didn't they start high, huh? I've done contract and sales negotiations and I was very good at it. They didn't even try...
Donna Carbone - "Also, as I've said before, we are a war time economy. That's how this nation makes money. Wars are never fought for ideals -- they are fought for "I" deals, meaning that politicos benefit from the manufacture of weapons and the rebuilding of countries in the aftermath of war."
You didn't address your comment to me, but I saw the end and thought - EXACTLY! And, some wonder why terrorists and the like are upset with us? While I completely disagree with their methods and know they were out of line to attack a country and hurt our fellow Americans and those crimes deserve to be stopped and punished, I also can see why they are angry. The person who should have gotten the peace prize in 2009 is Greg Mortenson, the man building peace accords by doing the very thing President Obama talks about doing.
I realize this is a democratic republic and the way our forefathers structured it, but what it has morphed into is cause for a revolution and nothing I believe our forefathers would bless. These were spiritual men, many deists or free masons, and they did not take that fact lightly. The documents they drafted have stood the test of time and were also designed to undergo interpretation as we evolved - not require strict adherence to the point in which we were hamstrung by the literalness of their words.
I appreciate your comments and divine visit.
Patrick: "The only way to usurp democracy is to fool it's people... The only way to fool it's people is to steal it's media..." I know, I wonder if people can see the difference between hear and Iran? They think they are getting a clear view of what is happening? It is completely scary to me. Thanks for your wise words and the book recommendation, this is one I haven't read! I got a B&N book card so I will be getting it! :)
old new lefty: I know the record, and we may have been further along had either of them not done what they did. However, that does not make a sound argument for making this deal - they are praying on that very fear to pass a counterproductive bill.
And, ONL, I don't judge people, while I do put boundaries up when I see inappropriate behavior. T.S. and I haven't always seen eye to eye but we have found common ground which is what I believe is what is going to unite this country versus divide it. If we stay in our "camps", no one wins. I appreciate your visit.
al loomis - your comment is filled with so much pessimism it is hard to muck through what it means? I have yet to find a comment with something positive to say? Maybe this is your view, but I do not share it. If you are calling me angry, yes. If you are calling me "lacking substantive action", I haven't said I won't be doing anything and I am also waiting to see if it passes. Next time, you may want to bring some tangible suggestions versus complaints yourself. Thank you for your visit.
Patrick - Yes! You got it! I was taught in debate, the only way to win is to know your opponent's argument better than he does. So, you don't just learn about your viewpoint, you learn about your own. Add to that actually living, real world experience, versus having lofty philosophical views, and then you have someone with something well-rounded to say. Thank you!
FranksandBeans - well, I don't know about the woman part, but courage it does take if you are going to look at the truth of what is going on right now. Thank you.
Cathy - "I have to say, I do find both party's culpable in this dust bin of a mell of a hess we find ourselves in today." Yes, Yes, Yes! This is a succinct way of putting it! Thank you. I just want to say a resounding, "AMEN!" to the entire rest of your comment.
Sagemerlin - Two things strike me from your comment. I will address them below:
"Most of my peers from sixties and seventies are either sold-out or burned-out, or both. As a group, we're jaundiced and therefore suspect, but we do have a perspective. which is sorely lacking in the reporting I've seen."
Thank you for saying this. I didn't feel it was my place. I see it, too, and I find it very unfortunate. Thank you for not folding.
"To address one, we have to address them all. The system that was supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people, has become the system that takes FROM the people, AGAINST the people's will, and TO the detriment of their rights as citizens."
I completely agree. This is the policy of the hour, but it is the system I am deeply concerned about. Your quote is perfect, I will be adding that to my bio. Just perfect. I will look to your blog shortly for what you have to say.
Hope - good point. Yes, it is hard to hear people being castigated for believing in the "double talk" coming out of the trained politicians mouth. When I say, I think people have been naive, I include myself in that group. This isn't a fault finding mission - this is a truth finding mission so we can all heave ourselves out. I am glad you are here to dig out, too. Thank you for your visit.
TheBarkingLot4 - You go girl! Now we can burn our bras, too. I know, the marching hour is upon us. Let's see what kind of accurate media attention we would really get, huh? The only reasons I have been an Independent all these years, was I never did trust the political process, even at 16. I have my personal reasons for that, saw some cops and politicians doing some pretty sleazy things at a very young age so I knew not to ever trust them and held onto that (ones that were "well respected" in my community). So, while I held out hope for Obama, I think the shadow of GWB and the hope of the first African-American president did cloud my judgment some. I won't let that happen again.
It's time to take this country back wholesale.
marcelleqb - thank you, thank you. Very kind of you.
I don't understand the philosophy of accepting the imperfect instead of just trying to get it right the first time. Shame. Shame. Shame. Where o where has my America gone?
I've already compromised my beliefs so far I'm twisted in a huge knot. I don't see the insurance companies compromising at all. I don't see our legislators compromising over something--single payer--that the majority of their constituents wanted. I see a bunch of greedy jerks, who HAVE their health care paid for, giving concessions to their REAL constituents, the insurance company. I refuse to be fooled anymore. And I'm tired of people saying, "if we just go along with this" or "if we just wait, something will be done."
I don't believe it anymore.
"in essence, corporations are now writing the laws and you are paying them to do it while they make a profit off of your taxes, except now you will be fined (with potential jail time) if you don’t buy into the additional taxes they are going to place on you for your substandard care, which will be voted in by the super Democratic 60 against your will even though you elected them into office making your vote now completely obsolete!"
That sums it up perfectly. There's democracy in this country, but only if you can afford it. One man one vote? What a quaint concept!
And, for all the other reasons I already stated also above I disagree with Krugman.
I told you on your blog I'm done responding to this volley between us - I'm not in this to "win" anything, I am here to tell the truth as I see it, change my mind if someone brings up a logical point worth considering, and unite as many people as possible in the process. You keep characterizing me as making arguments I have not made and taking "sides." You see, I know longer believe there are political "sides" - you do. So, we're done in terms of this conversation.
Dave - shame -o- shame it is. Thanks for coming by.
Deborah - Yes, I too disagree with Krugman, and with deep respect, disagree with Joan Walsh, too. I rarely disagree with Joan, in fact I originally had a paragraph saying so in the post but it didn't flow smoothly. Glenn Greenwald did a tremendous job sticking to the truths and seeing how the overlaps are bringing about a murky new blend of politics and corporatism which is going to get more nutty as we move forward. I want my America back!
odetteroullete - "We're being asked to eat shit with a fork and spoon and enjoy it. No, thank you. It's WRONG." AMEN!!! Yes, for those who are centrists and argue we are whining, or not getting everything we want so complaining, I dare them to read this. It sums it up nicely. It is WRONG. It doesn't get clearer than that. This brand of corporatism is WRONG. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!
I have defected back to Independent, too. I am breathing easier. I gave $300.00 to Obama's campaign when I was dead broke. It is a bitter pill to swallow so I am with a whole lot of people - I feel hoodwinked myself. I didn't expect him to change everything, but I did expect him to be honest in his word. Make me naive? Probably. Make me wrong? No.
nana - "Our government is off the rails, and is no longer the slightest bit concerned about working for the best interests of regular Americans." I agree - I just wondered if they are deluded enough to think they are?
My money is on the former.
In the meantime, I see all this turmoil and anti-Obama agitation as a political deathblow to the man and the Democrats...and I see the Republicans coming back into control of the ship of state with the most strident conservatives at its helm. Our country and the world will suffer grievously as a result.
And in my opinion, the fault for that disaster will fall squarely on you good folks kidding yourselves that your grousing, faultfinding, and complaining are something other than allegiance to principle gone apeshit.
We’ll see.
This is not what I am doing at all. I have made sound arguments for my reasons . I don't advocate for the right, I think they are as whacked, but I definitely DON'T believe in standing by silent for crumbs. I am also going to take this to the streets Frank, not just stand by and become a slave to this system BECAUSE IT IS WRONG! Yes, we will see, and you can thank me when you don't become a surf to the power brokers.
I am telling the truth as to what is happening in my country. I have not called Obama out for anything I haven't truly seen him do. And, quit calling me, "you good folks", and lumping me in with who exactly? It is annoying and it is you his telling me you are about to "blame" me for the state of our union for standing up for what I see happening right in front of my face, which is what the Democrats should have done in the first place, tried to deal with the issue of the congressional rules, etc. I'm not a professional politician, I am a broke stay-at-home mom, former business director, trained profiler, who knows how to write on a good day, and if I can see this, they certainly can, too.
The Bible is the most boring book ever written. All it does is repeat over and over the same story of societies that screw the weak are then themselves screwed by their stronger enemies. We think we are strong and it won't happen to us. That's really boring too.
I simply do not take any of this personally…and I think you would sound a little less angry with me if you finally came to the realization that I am doing essentially the identical thing you are doing; attempting to do what I SEE TO BE what is best for the state of our union; the state of the world; and the state of the human condition.
We disagree on what is best in this particular instance. No matter how much my use of the words “you good folks” bothers you, the fact is that there are factions aligned in opposition to acceptance of this bill (and you are a part of that faction) just as there are factions aligned to promote it (and I am part of that group.) You are, in short, a part of “the good folks” I mentioned in what I consider as nice a form as possible…but you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge even something like that. You want to get angry and lash out at me even for that!
In any case, I say this country will one day wake up and realize that decent health care has to be provided for everyone…and that wealth and wherewithal cannot be a determinant for who will have access to it…and who will not. When that day comes, I am positive this feeble start will be seen as the base upon which it was built.
I understand your opposition…but the move toward sanity on this issue has got to start somewhere. This admittedly highly defect (and anger provoking) bill IS THAT START.
This is not personal with me, Sparking…I do not dislike you nor am I, as you seem to think, being dismissive of you or your sensibilities. I am arguing for what I see to be in the best interests of finally getting the kind of health care reform this nation ABSOLUTELY MUST GET.
I understand that you think otherwise. So be it.
Neither Nancy nor I are religious in any way, but we enjoy the Christmas holiday…and celebrate it with many relatives and friends. I hope you, your family, and your friends…no matter how you treat the time…have a good holiday. Hope the food is good; the companionship delightful…and that good thoughts rule the day.
Harry's Ghost - "All it does is repeat over and over the same story of societies that screw the weak are then themselves screwed by their stronger enemies. We think we are strong and it won't happen to us. That's really boring too." A collective, "Amen!" and "Hallelujah!" my friend (pun intended). :)
Andy Rowe - you are definitely NOT alone. Nice2meetU.
Amanda - Nice2MeetU as well. That is a very perceptive point. Perceptive indeed. Thank you for that.
I have failed with my own words to communicate to you what it is that bothers me about your approach in your comments to me (and I guess others when I addressed you on your blog about Thoth). It isn't that we disagree, sincerely it isn't, I have no problem saying, "let's agree to disagree". It is the barbs in your comments which you don't seem to see, the way you accuse me specifically of "blaming Obama" when I haven't done anything but point out facts, and the way you lump me into an "others" camp because I disagree with you on one issue. I am no longer a Democrat either (registered before the Obama election - been an Independent most of my life), not because I am not progressive or left leaning, because I have never believed in my heart in the political system as it stands (since I was 16 when I went to summer debate camp at Yale, which I earned on scholarship, and learned a lot based on what they tried to teach me was "right") where others do.
You strike me as someone who doesn't change their mind often, and that is fine (and I could be wrong). However, when you lump me into a camp with others who oppose this issue, you often mischarachterize my personal opinion about this argument. You also have told me I'm not "pitching in" because I don't agree with you and to that I say, "YES I AM!" I am absolutely pitching in to what is called a free speech democratic process in which we are absolutely responsible to question what we see happening, to not do so would be akin to not voting, that would not be "pitching in."
I am not taking this "personally" as you keep saying, I am annoyed that you keep leveling little barbs at me and small attacks because I don't agree with you and not taking responsibility for it. To have an opinion is one thing, every one here has done that just fine, but they are not mischaracterizing me repeatedly, shaming me by saying I'm not pitching in, and grouping me with some proverbial "we" to which I have not signed up!
I have never once said to you because you disagree with me, "you are not pitching in, you are ruining this country, you suck because you support Obama" - I know others have, but I have not. Yet, you don't provide me with the same courtesy.
And, you are right, I don't see this health care reform bill as the only problem. I see this as the start of an overall, systemic problem and this bill is the start of it. I am opposing it because I believe it is not progress and it will bring about radical systemic change, as I outlined above, bringing the private sector into government in a way we have only seen hints of in the past. This "third way" will only cripple the very people I believe Obama is trying to help and I don't understand his motives, I can't get inside his head, so I don't blame him, I just don't support it. And, as a result of a litany of his decisions, I no longer support him politically. Do I think this will put the Repubs back on the hill? Maybe temporarily in Congress, but my hope is to be a part of a nonviolent civil uprising in this country which will put heat on this government concerning how it operates from here-to-forth. That's how I plan to pitch in Frank. So, I plan to put my money where my mouth is Frank.
I leave you with the words of another, and from here, you are welcome to comment on my blog as long as you don't throw barbs out and are willing to discuss the issues and your opinion based on facts (as you did with your first comment - besides the "pitching in" part). This is all the energy I have left to try to sort this out with you - my energy needs to go elsewhere. And, a Happy Holidays to you and yours.
Ed Kilgore (who happens to align with your "pragmatic" approach more than mine, that is why I used this quote. I believe in unity and mutual respect despite ideological differences - however - if you come to my living room with barbs and characterizations, I will take the gloves off):
For those of us whose primary interest is progressive unity and political success for the Democratic Party, it's very tempting to downplay or even ignore this potential fault-line and the left-right convergence it makes possible. It's also easy to dismiss critics-from-the-left of Obama as people primarily interested in long-range movement-building rather than short-term political success; that's true for some of them. But sorting out these differences in ideology and perspective is, in my opinion, essential to the progressive political project. And with a rejuvenated and increasingly radical Right's hounds baying and sniffing at the doors of the Capitol, we don't have the time or energy to spare in dialogues of the deaf wherein we call each other names while getting ready for the elections of 2010 and 2012.
I am not trying to promote an ideological fight within the Democratic Party or the progressive coalition, and don't want to exaggerate ideological differences, either. But ideology, however muddled, is part of what makes most politically active people tick. And if we don't talk about it--and about differences in strategic thinking as well, which should be the subject of future discussions--then all we are left with to explain our differences on this issue or that is questions of character. And anyone paying attention must recognize there's far too much of that going on. "Progressive pragmatists"--the camp with which I most often personally identify, as it happens--often treat "the Left" condescendingly as immature and impractical people who don't understand how things get done. Meanwhile, people on "the Left" often treat "pragmatists" as either politically gutless or personally corrupt. This is what happens when you don't take seriously other people's ideological and strategic underpinnings; whatever you gain in ignoring or minimizing differences in perspective or point of view is lost in mutual respect. Sure, the character attacks on both sides are sometimes accurate, but nobody should assume that in any particular case without further examination of each others' ideological and strategic views. That examination is long past due.
http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-plank/taking-ideological-differences-seriously
You throw as many "barbs" my way as I have ever thrown your way...and you have mischaracterized my supposed ad hominem attacks on you both in the Thoth blog and the Kent Pittman blog.
I did not attack you.
Yes, I have expressed my displeasure with people who are bad-mouthing Obama…and possibly turning our country over to extreme conservatives…but that is my right…and it is NOT ad hominem attacking.
You strike me as someone who doesn't change their mind often, and that is fine (and I could be wrong).
You very definitely are wrong here…and there are several OS posts that show me making significant changes, because I recognized errors or inappropriate behavior on my part.
You, quite honestly, see very close-minded. You started on me about my ad hominem attacks on you in the Thoth and Kent Pittman blogs…and when I asked you for examples…you did not come up with a single one.
I know why…because there are none there.
I do have a right to express my displeasure as I said up above…and I have every right to put it in forceful and passionate terms…but for you to take those items and offer them to the public as ad hominem attacks on your…is absurd.
I tried to calm things over at my blog…and in fact, allowed you the last word. I tried to post a decent, respectful response here, but we go right back to the kind of thing you just posted…so I am giving up on the trying to be reasonable and treating you the way you are treating me.
These forums are not for the thin-skinned or the faint-of-heart, Sparking. We speak to each other with passion and conviction…and I am as certain I should defend my position as you are certain you should defend yours.
Yesterday I Listened to a single Mother.
She was honest, human, powerful, sad.
I never ask her personal questions, but,
She volunteered to tell me bits - A story.
Inwardly, She was brilliant, in radiance.
What is the mental state of the nation?
Never mind.
She has one front tooth knocked out.
The last thing She said was Thanks.
I ask`Who are You? I was awed.
She said`Thanks for helping out.
She said`I am a peasant woman.
Simply.
I am still`blown away. Her presence.
Her kindness. She was perfectly real.
Honest.
`
No haranguing, cobwebs, no food,
no cat analogies, the poor worker,
no apologies, advocacy, no dessert,
a country has gone to the city-rats?
She wasn't bitter and smelt sweet.
She said I was a fluffy white bear.
I didn't even snuggle and smooch.
She smile with one lost front tooth.
HOW many will hurt in the debacle?
How many suffer and GREED ruins?
Humanity that No CARE - No care ilk?
In my opinion`'um appear as big rubber?
The Got No empathy foe remind me OY!
The` No Compassion FOR their fellows?
Mannequins.
That's my feeling
She was a peasant.
That's what She said.
Mind got blown away.
Selfish folk shrivel up.
Mannequins fair well.
Greedy folk look dead.
Hafiz was asked this:`
LISTEN. a poem
How Should We Listen?
I'll paraphrase Hafiz -
`
Listen as if the person
was telling you and me
their precious insights
their words of one Life.
their last divine words.
(the heat is back on, fees,
hookup fees, mercy my)
She had no apt. utilities.
radical mass mess is`DC.
cold barren walk as dead.
karma, sow, reap scrooge.
just dumbstruck, few words,
and wondering still - sighs.
It took me day or so to absorb your poignant words. Very deft, very piercing.
What is the mental state of the nation? Indeed...
She is among so many, Hafiz is wise to quote.
The pragmatists believe it is time to bend, the idealists believe it is time to dig in and fight. I believe it is time to dig in. She is the example for so many - when you talk with one - you feel the need of many.
I don't believe all politicians are evil...I believe the progressive left is operating withing the system they know, and a few have fought very hard. I admire them. However, when it is time to fight, to tell the truth, and have faith in Americans that they will understand, then it is time. I have that faith in my fellow citizens. The time is now.
Thanks for your most welcome visit. I look forward to hearing more from you.
The idea that we should pass bad legislation with an eye toward improving it later is one of those "ignore history at your own peril" moments.
Actually, almost every piece of safety net legislation was passed…and then improved upon. Anyone thinking that is not the way it should go…is the one ignoring history!
This legislation takes years just to become fully implemented. Should we honestly believe that after that, "fixing it" will be a priority? The stupidity, the shortsightedness of that assertion is overwhelming. Once this legislation is finalized, we're stuck with it for a very, Very, VERY long time to come.
And you consider rejecting it…and having no base upon which to build…less stupid; less shortsighted, Rick? What is overwhelming, Rick, is that someone as intelligent as you find the opposite side to be stupid and shortsighted.