This is what frightens the bejabbers out of me. This business about reform seems to cover whatever gets her into office - and then it's all loyalty tests, infighting, long-term borrowing to fuel spending, snuffling in the federal trough, and noun verb Jesus.

I can hardly wait.

What they have done with the new generation is that they have toned down some of the old talk, but it's still the same talk. The core is theocracy.

Oops, it's not even that obvious. That quote is what scares me, "our leaders" and "god" in one sentence.

When did Christians get so mean? What happened to love thy neighbor? Apart from my enormous rejections to the loss of secularity, which are legion, I want to know how my all-accepting, sin-forgiving religion (I'm Episcopalian) became a bully pulpit of judgment and insult. I'm appalled. That speech last night, combined with Rudy 9/11 Guiliani's, was the meanest in memory. What has happened to us as people that we cheer that sort of behavior? I'm in mourning today, mourning the last ounce of decency.

::gasp!::

"If the people of Alaska's hearts are not right with God, nothing else matters."

I'll pray all right.
I'll pray we all get to keep our own belief systems intact.

Appalling.
Every person in this country needs to see these videos.

This is something that Democrats, if they had any strategic brains, could use in those crucial swing states.

There are a lot of voters in those states who lean conservative/libertarian but can be progressive on social issues. These are "don't tread on me" voters who bear suspicions of the religious Right that if properly exploited can gain Democrats votes.

You have to tell these voters that they don't need those theocratic hypocrites telling them what to do with their lives and living by a different standards themselves.

It may not be many votes that you get. But things are so close in those swing states that you may just peel away enough of them to win.

These are voters who voted for Bill Clinton and were never bothered by his sex scandals and sustained him in the polls at pretty impressive margins throughout his impeachment process.

That is why I bang my head, don't make her a hero. There is enough material to not what that type of politics in the executive branch. The culture wars are not over. This is the new " foot soldier" of the theocrats.

Stellaa, you poor, benighted pagan, I'll pray for you, he said more in sadness than in anger. [chuckle]

She's on a mission from God? Maybe....she's the lost Blues Brother.

Seriously, you're spot on here. Separation of Church and State, anyone? ANYONE. Please.

- es.

excellent post. - in her speech she did a good job waltzing around the nutjob beliefs and values that are the real reason they want her on the ticket, instead focuisng on the main talking points of her personal narrative. I hope the media, and Dems, do their job and get this stuff out on the table.

Stella, I'm so glad you posted this. I was trying to do that earlier and can't seem to figure out how to get a video up on a blog. Hints?

As someone who was once part of this kind of belief system, make no mistake. From this kind of religious perspective, it's them VS. the world and there is no talking them out of it...until, as in my case, real life happens.

Let the humbling begin....

Sandra, there is really good fodder, we don't need to invent it.

Red, I agree. People expected her to trip up or make mistakes. The expectations were low. It's Republican speech material, empty calories. Faux populism.

I am sorry to report that my anecdotal evidence suggests that the Florida Christian right thought it was a great speech. Could not be persuaded that it was at all negative...of course, if she had said something positive about the DEMs, there may have been a different take.

I am still bummed out from last night. WAY too much negativity to suit my populist heart. And, PLEASE, will the media not continue to link her with populist roots? It rubs me very much the wrong way.

Theocracy/ Theocratic/ Theocrats -- I bet that language is too academic to use in appeals to voters.

What other terms would you suggest, Stellaa?

BTW, I think we should go back to a broader variety of posts. Food, culture, etc. This political/Palin stuff is making us all a bunch of bores. Myself, included.

Lt, you are right, nothing like boorish bores.

On theocrats....I will think about it. But in some, the Republicans want a theocratic oligarchy that is in a constant state of war.

Pretend Farmer said: "That speech last night, combined with Rudy 9/11 Guiliani's, was the meanest in memory. What has happened to us as people that we cheer that sort of behavior? I'm in mourning today, mourning the last ounce of decency."

I completely agree. That was one truly revolting display.

I have no quibble with her religious beliefs if they remain her private affair. I'm not trying to mock religion or religious people. But it's clear that she has no intention of being anything other than an instrument of her God to make her religious beliefs dominant across the land. This is exactly the type of fundamentalist certitude that leads to strapping on explosive vests or learning to fly planes into buildings.

As president, is there any doubt that if she thought God's will was to launch a nuke strike against some other "god-less" country, she would do it, regardless of the consequences? Is there any doubt that, if she believed God wanted her to be the instrument of the coming of the end times, she would unleash nuclear holocaust upon the face of the earth?

This isn't about who's politics are better. This isn't about who's tax plan is better. This isn't about change or corruption or age or gender or race. This isn't about whatever flaws you see in any of the other 3 people at the top of the two major party tickets. This is scary stuff.

Have any of you ever read Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale?

It was written in the 80s and it is rather prescient. The power of the religious Right is far stronger than it was back then.

The book depicts just such a theocratic society which feeds on religious oppression and perpetual war.

The United States is by no means that kind of Orwellian society today. But every time you hear someone like Palin talk, with their barely masked us vs. them, tribal world view, it makes you wonder what kind of a person they would have turned out to be had they been born in Germany in 1900. Actually, you don't really have to wonder at all.

And did you all see the story in the WP today about how white the GOP convention is? There were only 36 African-American deligates out of more than 2,300. It quotes several Republicans on it and many were surprisingly refreshing in their candidness. They simply admitted that it was shameful. Unfortunately, they seemed utterly clueless as to why they can't attract more African-Americans and other minorities to the GOP. Although, one guy said about attracting Latinos, "We have to make a better case to the Hispanic voter that the Republican Party has something to offer other than a deportation slip." This guy's observant, he should be a Democrat.

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/03/AR2008090303962.html?nav=hcmodule

I've never met a Christian that wanted or expected a Theocracy on this earth in these times. Christian beliefs are that the day will come when Christ comes and will exist on the new Earth (I know, sounds creepy?). Humans could not deliver a sound Theocracy in an imperfect world and with so many competing religions. As a Christian,(oops...I may be asked to leave now?)...I hold that view close to my heart and mind.

Any of you ever read Don Miller? He's a Christian democrat that makes a great point about preachers using the pulpit for politicians as though they really care about the cause of Christ - I totally agree with him on that point and it was freeing to spiritually un-align myself with the tradition view of the Christian base regarding political parties....I think many Christians feel the same way. Loosen up on us, okay?

What frightens me is when people refuse to see more than that which comes from their own like minded resources. Whether in politics or religion, education and life decisions. I think the ideas of parties / groups are so much more important than humans that we have a great divide in our nation today and that scares and saddens me.

Hi Leslie,

What you are reading here is not to be taken as hostility or contempt for religion or people's Christian views.

But history has a pattern and it doesn't favor secular democracies as much as you may think. Human beings have a tendency to want to impose their views on others, hence the totalitarian regimes of the 20th Century. Couple that with the tendency of those in power wanting to remain there -- you're run of the mill dictatorship -- and democracy is always under threat. Only vigilance in maintaining those boundaries clearly is what maintains your freedom, including your religious freedom (Theocracies can get very narrow ideologically.)

It's when those with a sect-like view, who think that you have to either agree with them 100 percent or you are something alien to them, when those people come along they are by definition, uncompromising. And one cannot accommodate them. They create the hostility when they attempt to inject their religious views and moralism into public policy.

The popularist root thing is disturbing...especially given the vicious nature of her speech.

Religion has long been used as a fulcrum to advance an evil agenda, and it has probably been around as long as we have been self-aware. The Nazi Wehrmacht had belt buckles that had the inscription, "Gott Mit Uns", which means, "God is with us"...Reminds me of some lyrics from Bob Dylan:

"In many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side"

That about sums it up.

Thanks, Lt. Columbo...how does anyone of any faith whether it be athiesm, Christianity, Judaism, Paganism ect... seperate their religious influence from their political agenda?

And thanks for the kind words...I don't feel hated, but am feeling a bit out of place. I've not really grasped where the base of this community is coming from and it feels almost cynical and full of suspicion...but I don't have my head around these feelings and views...if that makes sense.

I don't understand the shear anger towards someone we've only seen in public for a few days....I dont' understand why Sen. Oboma isn't considered as mena spirited when he makes jibes...they all do it.

How would this community describe itself...are you all Dems? Independants? Liberals? Can you explain to me in simple speak?

"In many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side"


Joe Blow...loved the response! Love those classic lyrics. Actually hits close to home with me in a way I wont' bore you all with.

In my humble opinion...I think he had God on his side:)

Leslie. Again I applaud you and ask if some can really say that what they see on one side is not what happens on the other. It does but it seems that some just want to "high five" each other over and over and comiserate with hostile words and "mean-ness" that they attribute only to opposing side. Can we all be honest here and agree that sarcasm and cynicism happens on both sides of the aisle. If we could there might be room for REAL DISCUSSION.

Jeff - thank you for the kind words. I' m thinking we are totally lost in cynicism and sarcasm. It's a fine line, for sure.

One of the things I liked in Oboma's speech was his appeal to the idea that we can find a middle ground...but then he lost me with the Saddleback/$5 mil / annual thing...

There is common ground for all Americans....who is going to put their toe across the line, first, though?

OK, I watched the whole video and I just don't see these people in this little church as much of a threat. I do see some kooky views here but then I also think that alternative medicine is kooky, that believing that the CIA invented AIDS is kooky, that believing that George Bush conspired to cause 9/11 is kooky, and I could go on and on. The world will always have a percentage of kooky people. But, if we stick to the founding principles of individual liberty, then people will be able to run their own lives and be as kooky or non-kooky as they want.

McGarret, it's not kooky to think Iraq is in God's plan?

Stellaa, well, you've kind of jumped to a conclusion there since my post said that I thought there were some kooky views there.

However, you question has a very meaningful subtext. If someone does believe in God and that our existence has a purpose, is it so kooky to believe that a war is in God's plan? The USA was founded by defeating Britain. The slaves were freed because the North defeated the South. France was liberated by an alliance of democracies. South Korea is free because of the American army. Millions died in Southeast Asia because the US was defeated.

God's plan? Who knows? Whenever people take steps from tyranny to freedom, I am happy. I would only want to believe in a God that was also happy with that too.

Good point McGarret, but I don't want mythological figures to enter our government.

Jumped the gun: her point is the Iraq war was god's plan.

Leslie Ford,

There are many instances throughout mans' history when religion has been used as a unifying force, but for the wrong reasons. This resulted in terrible suffering and death for many innocents as well as the protagonists. It is unwise to cling to the notion that religion will serve as a political ally. In the long run it does not. This country will never subscribe to the arch-conservatives theocratic aims, you can be sure of that. We are too diverse a nation, and our various belief systems are as well. What is does do, however, is divide and polarize us in a way that is difficult to ameliorate. I am hopeful that the people will see reason and end this abberant direction we have taken. Barack Obama is not a savior, but his ideals can help take us back onto the common-sense path once again.

McGarrett50 - if I remember the basics from Catholic school correctly, the point of the fall of man (and woman) from the Garden of Eden was that humans have free will. When you have both sides of a given war claiming that God is on their side, it seems to me that this is unlikely to be the work of an omnipotent being. Unless said omnipotent being has had enough of both sides and hopes that lo, they will smite one another with great abandon.

Point being, I think it's a bit rich to saddle God with the blame for our own shortcomings.

Only marginally related - considering that Nixon's policies pretty much opened the door for the Khmer Rouge, a contrarian could argue that millions died in Southeast Asia because the US wasn't defeated soon enough.

Oh boy... more people who know God's plan and are willing to interpret it for us.

John Stewart had one of his best lines in a long time last night when, after showing a Palin video, he said, "I like her. She's folksy."

Looks like Dubya all over again.

Excellent post StellaA.
I have always been amazed at how much of their own tradition the current stock of Christians are willing to ignore. Please tell me how those in attendance to the Palin Wednesday night speech would have reacted to hearing the "Sermon on the Mount?" And those who continually tell us what God's will is for us, why do they ignore Isaiah 55:8 - "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, declares the Lord."
I suppose the answer is contained in Jesus's last words on the cross - Forgive them Father for THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

Thanks Tim. God, wants us to march to war. That is the super theocratic tradition. God, anoints states to fight his battles, yet, God, speaks of peace.

I suppose it is possible to take the above quote as invoking God to legitimize the invasion of Iraq and the ongoing operations there, but that is not how I interpret this quote. In fact I see where it can be rather critical of the Bush administrations policy in Iraq.

"Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God," she said. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

If she were to have said, the following, would anyone on this blog be bit more comforted with here position?

"Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to hope for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan, not Bush and Cheney's plan."


At least this is how I interpret what she said here. Perhaps I'm being charitable, but I think not. Most Christians are against the Iraq war, even the far right, and even if they are for it, it has not gone well, it is obvious to even the most obtuse. Also, although the Christian right might have an over representation of said obtuse it is also representative of some less so, meaning that Palin needs to think of those people as well and they are not happy with the war, it reasons, it's and the incompetent and corrupt way it has been thus far prosecuted.

Bill, I'm not sure I can be comfortable with her position, or the position of any self described evangelical with regards to the Middle East. I would suggest reading Michael Oren's "Power Faith and Fantasy, America in the Middle East 1776 to the Present."
The reason for our muddling around there seems to be using Israel to help God kick-start the Armaggedon (He needs some proding apparently, He's been off His game the last few millenia). Yet we have forgotten that our Constitution, granting strong federal powers and our Navy were both midwifed by the Barbary Wars, our very first foreign entanglement as a nation.

Hipochristian........Thy name is Sarah Palin... Be afraid....Be very afraid!