When will the world say that Israel is safe? Israel claims a right to defend itself, yet Palestinians are not affforded a right to resist the occupation that is determined, with the help of the US, UN, EU and Arab League to topple their Democratically elected government. The attack on Lebanon was self defense now this is self defense. Lovely way we spread democracy.
I have been looking for the number of Israelis that have died from the Hamas missiles all this time, does anyone have a number? Clarify if they are soldiers vs. civilians.
Since the ground invasion we will see many civilian deaths, of course they will be justified, cause Israel is defending themselves and after all Hamas made them invade.
Headline from Israeli Newspaper: Hamas puts Gazans in danger by drawing IDF into urban warfare.
Be prepared for the IDF to justify civilian deaths and the world to keep silent . From today's actions.
Israel Defense Forces tank fire killed up to 40 Palestinians at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, medical sources at two hospitals said.
The attack brought the Palestinian death toll to nearly 600 in Israel's 11-day offensive on the Hamas-ruled coastal territory .
Two tank shells exploded outside the Gaza school, spraying shrapnel on people inside and outside the building, where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge from fighting between Israeli soldiers and Hamas militants. In addition to the dead, several dozen people were wounded, the officials said.
Medical officials said all the dead were either people sheltering in the school or local residents.
Israel Defense Forces troops edged closer to Gaza's main cities on Tuesday, a day after four IDF soldiers were killed in the ground offensive against the coastal strip's Hamas rulers.
The soldiers were killed in two separate incidents while battling Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip, taking the army's death toll to five since it launched the ground operation Saturday.
All four apparently died when errant IDF tank shells hit areas in which they were operating.
Palestinian deaths since the invasion: over 600 and counting not to mention the years of misery.
Now Israel and the IDF are complaining that the Hamas fighters are not sitting still to be killed, so watch for more massacres to be blamed on Hamas and the IDF get to be heroes. Damn, them, they are not sitting still, take their massacre.
Source for the news: Haaretz, Isreali newspaper.
Israel blocks foreign media from entering Gaza.
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Stellaa, I have been wondering the same thing myself. I heard one report saying 3 Israeli citizens died from the rocket attacks. 3. So if that's true (and I have no idea what the true number is) that means that one Israeli life is worth 200 Palestinians.
The Palestinian leadership uses the Palestinian people as cannon fodder. The American Left looks at the casualty rate and instead of condemning the Palestinian leadership, actually has the unmitigated gall to claim that it is a sign that the Palestinians are right.
Israeli-on-Israeli homicide deaths last year(2007): 172.
Gazans killed in latest Israeli peace mission: 600 and counting.
Amy, you are an AIPAC apologist. There is no way to have a conversation with you. You just repeat the talking points and make sure no critique of Israel goes unpunished.
"There is no way to have a conversation with you."
There are many ways to have a conversation with me, but those involve facts, and facts are in mighty short supply here. You made a claim Stellaa; I pointed out the implications. An intellectual argument would involve pointing out WHY I was wrong, not THAT I was wrong.
How about it? Can you construct an intellectual argument to show that the justice of a cause is directly proportional to the number of people killed on your side?
http://www.spaceways.net/Israel_stealing_palestine.jpg
Why does the US have to have any part in funding this genocidal campaign? Israel sucks down money and arms from the US at a tremendous rate, and you cannot even DISCUSS the matter, much less criticize it. Commendable post, but you are in for a shitstorm from the true-believer brainwashed-from-before-birth crowd.
That the US funds the ongoing atrocities conducted by Israel against the indigenous, native population grinds my soul to dust. We are wrong, wrong, wrong again. The degree of influence Israel has over US politicians and foreign policy is frightening, it's like some old Twilight Zone episode where everyone has somehow been converted or cowed into blind obedience to an evil force.
"Self-defense"? Against what? The captive population in Gaza firing useless skyrockets? Israel is a fanatical religious state which routinely ignores UN resolutions and has a secret nuclear ARSENAL. It uses the US like a golem and the US happily vetoes any attempt by the UN to prompt Israel to act less like the Nazi Germany that Zionists love to nurture and keep alive for its propaganda value.
This is deep rabbit hole. Bottomless. And the fact that you're forbidden to discuss US/Israeli relations except as far as how much more money and arms Israel will receive in the next fiscal year.
Israel is WRONG. The US is HORRIBLY WRONG to support Israel.
"Those who have armed and encouraged groups like Hamas - which only yesterday did not hide its sympathy for the criminal Saddam Hussein, and which declared three days of mourning after his death - have innocent blood on their hands: [the blood of those killed] in the [recent] hostilities [in Gaza]. Now it is they who must be accountable to humanity, and it is they who must explain this tragic situation.
"Israel's current crimes in Gaza are strongly condemned - but it is equally [important] to condemn the terror organizations that use kindergartens and hospitals as a shield against the [Israeli] attacks. [Hamas's use of human shields] prepares the ground for intensified bombardment [by Israel] and for the killing of children and civilians, and [therefore] it is an inhuman act.
"Daftar-e Tahkim-e Vahdat strongly condemns the current situation in the Gaza Strip and the killing of civilians and innocents. It believes that the sacrifice of defenseless people - especially children - [in Gaza] is the result of other conflicts in the regional and international arena.
This was the challenge Biden was talking about.
I've been waiting for this for a long time. It's time to stop apologizing for, recompensing for, the immoral excesses of human behavior. When a stick will not be broken, it becomes a switch, a weapon. That happened to post WWI Germany; it's happening all over again. If a people cannot be exterminated, they will rise up. To whom do I refer? I could refer to the noble, gallant Israelis. I could refer to the unbowed Palestinians. I could refer to the human spirit. Human ness. It's what we should seek.
I hope this isn't really true, but they have put him in a bind, haven't they? I haven't read anything about his response to all of this. Does anyone have anything?
But I'm afraid I don't understand why it is that Obama has to do the bidding of the current or future Israeli administration. Am I just wrong in thinking it would be possible for him to take the political chips of his stratospheric approval numbers and go all in to change fundamentally the dynamicm linking the US and Israeli governments. Is his position really impossible in this regard or just very difficult?
On Obama, I thought that Obama was gonna have to be more pro Israel than anyone to prove his creds to the Israeli lobby. Right now he is being tested and he will not use his points on this, he needs it for the economy.
Well, read Greenwald about US public opinion being against the Gaza attack yet, the politicians all mouth the same pro Israel sentiments. Are they thinking for themselves?
Since the beginning of time till the end of it Stellaa :/ We are very lucky to be living in a rich country and safe. I might hate our methods, but I am benefiting from the results.
The corrupt despots of the the Arab countries are complicit.
"... Israel sabotaged Obama. They made a stance where the new administration has to do their bidding. Talk about American policies being determined by a foreign state. "
Did you really mean to say that Israel actually controls U.S. policy? And that any one who disagrees with you, personally, must doing the 'bidding' of Israel? You seem like a reasonable person; do you not understand how close to anti-Semetic conspiracy theory this sounds?
It's fine to criticize Israel; it's completely inaccurate to say that Israel "controls" the U.S.
Like I said, I will not engage in your tactic.
It's very clear Dr. Turter is a classic example of why this war won't end. The terms of the discussion can only be her own. The fact that Israel has oppressed the Palestinians to a point where they have no options to have any semblance of self-respect does not occur to her, and I am aware that will only inflame her to attack my intellectual acuity as well.
Thus, I write this so my own conscience is clear and that others know what side I am on. It is not anti-semetic to be against the right wing domination of Israel, which is the problem, and does not make me a screaming leftist either. The country is in the grips of a mass psychosis whereby the Jews of Israel are perpetrating another people as they were perpetrated.
The focus needs to be put on the next election with the hope that the right is finally knocked out of office, as it was most recently in this country--especially in the form it is now in which does not seek peace but vengeance and annihilation of another people. The fact that the Palestinians won't recognize Israel is merely ideological, the oppression Israel caused that feeds the bloodbath is real.
The historical shame belongs to Israel and those in this country who still support them right or wrong.
I think that the complicity of the American government in these events goes to show not that there is a Jewish lobby with unprecedented power in the US, but that the US would rather have the Israelis do their dirty work. Why fight organizations hostile to the US when Israel can do it for you? And take all the flack for it internationally? That makes a lot more sense to me. And I do think that the next step is Iran because there is no way in hell that our armed forces can handle a war with a country as big as Iran. But Israel...maybe they could....
I wonder when the Israelis will wake up and realize they are being taken by the international community and try to make a better world for their own children instead of the Americans'...
however, israel has killed four israelis with friendly fire since the "intensive" started.
We are, at least in my mind, not so much influenced by an Israeli lobby, or a Saudi lobby, but an evangelical American mindset that has its roots in the need to help God fire up the end all and be all war that so many find in the Book of Revelations by supporting a return to the land of Israel of the Jews. Its not love or support of Isreal per se, it is a need to say my God can kick your God's ass.
I am not the topic here neither is the manufactured offense you take.
NO MORE WAR
Just for the record, the Palestinians are a semitic people as well.
well, let's see. if i cut someone off in traffic because i am talking on my cell phone, and they have an accident that wrecks their new car, they are justified in their anger, yes?
so, is killing my entire family a fair response to their justified anger at the fact that i DID IN FACT carelessly cause them pain?
what if i steal someone's husband? what if i molest their child? neither of these actions are CARELESS and they are both TERRIBLY TERRIBLY wrong.
even still, would it make it right for that person to kill my family?? my family didnt do anything wrong.
neither did those children in gaza.
as i say, amy - you cant say anything to make me respond to your vileness.
just to be clear, i say vileness as in, your entire being is vile. you must have been terribly ignored as a child.
been meaning to get over and look at your post all morning, but was busy trying to get dr. taatgen on kcrw's "to the point" with warren olney. the show is syndicated with PRI so maybe you can hear it live up in berkeley. or check out their website, www.kcrw.com. click on news.
anyway, we were unable to reach dr. taatgen in time. damn.(: but maybe manana.:) so i just wanted to tell you that... and also hylabean, who asked how blogging could solve the problem.
if i remember correctly last year time magazine voted bloggers the "person of the year." and look what blogging almost did for dr. taatgen? having his voice heard nation wide and world wide for that matter. dr. taatgen was going to also give contacts to civilians living inside gaza so the civilian voice could be heard. check out his show yesterday. it will be archived and it is damn good. and maybe dr. t. will be on manana.:)
and so i have read many of your comments here. and so i am posting two paragraphs i wrote in an earlier post when this invasion began. it is regarding being labeled an anti-semite, which i am not.
thanks for this most excellent post.:)
mary
I find it difficult to believe that the Israeli government is not allowing journalists into the Gaza Strip. What??? Is this Burma? North Korea? Are they afraid the world will look down on these brutal massacres and possibly demand a stop to the indiscriminate killings?
Afraid we might see the killing fields of Gaza at the bloody hands of the IDF and speak out condemning them? Only this time when we condemn the attacks we won't be labeled anti-Semites, merely citizens of the world who see injustice and unfair treatment of the Palestinians. Maybe viewed as human rights activists, which I am, rather than an anti-semite, which I am not.
does anyone know how it came to be associated solely with being jewish?
does anyone know how it came to be associated solely with being jewish?
The Hebrew Wiki entry on Qassams is updated through Dec 24 and speaks of 18 total killed. Add two, I think, since the slaughter began. 20. I'm not sure they're counting the Thai casualties (I wish that was a joke, it's not), so let's make it 25, cause there was a Thai worker killed in a separate incident.
I have no idea how many Palestinians we've killed in Gaza since 2001, but even counting only out and out civilians it has to be dozens of times more.
Also, Ricky, can you enlighten us on what happened November 4th? From what I have found, it seems the cease fire was working till then, then when IDF went into Gaza the missiles started again? What of all that is true and how does one sort it out?
This is not said to excuse Israeli actions. But it remains a fact, and one that is virtually never addressed. Hamas leaders are vile and corrupt in my opinion, just as much so as many of the Israeli leaders.
The official site for data about Israelis killed by rockets is the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs site "Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism since September 2000." I don't know if OS editor is allowing off-site references so here it is in long-hand so that the editor doesn't have a conniption fit. Of course add the h***backslash etc. :
www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm
From the data, 19 deaths (from 9/27/2000 through 12/29/2008 ) are attributed variously to mortar bombs, Qassams, Grads fired from Gaza. This is the same number as Smithbarney's and RickyB's.
The oddest thing here is that prior to December 27, 2008, the start of the Israeli "incursion", there was a six month period with no deaths due to rocket attack. So this can hardly have been the proximate cause of the present action.
(To be fair, the number of rockets fired which did not kill or wound is not noted here. The effect might very well be like the WWII "buzz bombs" over London in the last days of that war, which actually were not that effective in terms of killing, but did cause tremendous fear, panic and paralysis by their number and uncertainty of when and where the next attack would occur. RickyB. is there -- he might be able to address this point.)
Latest NYT headline (5:00 PM EST): "Israeli Strike hits Refugees Near a U.N. School in Gaza". Body of article: At least 30 people were reported killed at a school where refugees had gathered....
And so it goes.
But, I find it difficult to sympathize with a group of people who hide where they keep their babies.
If you keep lobbing missiles at my house, eventually I'm gonna lob back. And just because my missiles are bigger than yours doesn't make it unfair.
rated
After the only free and democratic election in the middle east (albeit a rather meaningless one since Israel retains real control) Palestine elected Hamas leadership. The U.S. and Israel rejected the peoples' voices and enacted a 3 year siege of Gaza. Borders closed, walls built, an entire population--mostly refugees to begin with--starved and denied the most basic services, like regular electricity and access to schools and healthcare.
Common Israelis and Gazans want nothing more than to be safe, go to school, go to work, move freely and provide for their families. The only difference between the two groups is that Gazans have been denied all of these rights consistently by the Israeli government.
The current response by the Israeli government in this crisis is inexcusable, and amounts to nothing less than war crimes.
Civilians targeted, collective punishment, no place for refugees to flee to. Unbelievable. Why is it that neither the Democrats nor Republicans can see this. Why is it that Jimmy Carter remains the only major American political figure to stand up for what is just and call this travesty for what it is?
No more war.
Why is firing rockets into civilian centers in Israel okay?
Because if we argue about the true rights to the land we will be sitting on a burned down world, with a dead clock just in time for the end of time - and the last Arab and last Jew standing will still be punching each other about who has the right to the land.
Why not just say, "this is the reality we live in now - how can we figure it out?" -
Why are rockets every day directed at civilians okay?
Why are suicide bombers targeting civilians okay?
I'm not necessarily supporting the Israeli action here - I am asking why the other side's action is okay?
Because there's an occupation? You want to argue about the rights to the land? That's a boring discussion that goes back many many many many many years and both sides eventually go back to the Bible, which makes it even more boring.
Show the other side, please, strengthen your argument by saying that the Jews are fucked up but that the Arabs are just as fucked up. Otherwise you're being a pawn of sides: the more people become pawns in the hands of greedy politicians and actually "take sides" the more they forget that both sides are absolutely wrong and absolutely right. Not only one side. Meanwhile us pawns are all distracted by a stupid dead end argument, and the greedy politicians keep playing games with the lives of weak people.
Enough already.
if we couldnt send a modern bomb but could strap tnt to our chests, then strap tnt to our chests we would.
your argument baffles me.
unless i am missing something and you can document for me where israel actually gave the palestinians a chance to live, unfettered and unimpeded, on the strip.
i have seen nothing to indicate that, ever.
so rather than say our argument is old, why not offer your own prudent counter-point?
Erniesfo
I think the Arab states are run by a bunch of disgusting tyrannical despots who just replaced the colonials. Now what? Does that make you happy? I find them complicit in the current actions of Israel and hold them responsible as well.
just wanted to tell you to check out hope man and peace man's blog. i follow this blog and they were on NPR today!!! peace man writed from inside gaza and hope man writes from a border town on the israeli side. you will love it.:)
http://gaza-sderot.blogspot.com/
-Mohandas K. Gandhi
http://www.counterpunch.org/buch01062009.html
It is practically irrelevant. Unless you dream of a day when all the Jews leave Israel and move elsewhere.
They were given a chance to a state in 1948 and there have been attempts at talking for a few years now. And bus bombings. But I'm not even beginning to say Israel has been acting wonderfully, ever.
The US Canada comparison, in this particular regard, is irrelevant. The Americans and Canadians don't have a Bible to argue over and an Abraham daddy whose love they fight for.
Stella,
Okay. I'm happy.
in Gaza who are getting screwed by both sides. I also stand in
support of the Israeli civilians who don't want war and don't
want to be targeted by suicide bombers.
And I am SO sick of "The United States of Israel." One of the
few things I liked about Obama was his support of the
Palestinians. I hope his speeches to AIPAC were only lip
service.
I also wonder about Egypt, Jordan, Saudia, Syria and other states with plentyof room for a Palestinian homeland. I don't see the Palestinian claim to Jerusalem as any more legitimate than Isarael's
Somebody school me please.
And again, what about using your own children as shields? Are these people really any more righteous than those they hide from?
We all know that warfare in our times has changed. It is not one of two armies fighting. It is an army vs. guerillas. Starting from Vietnam then now to Iraq, etc. we know that this is not gonna work.
Israel has had plenty of opportunities to negotiate a peace and to truly make an effort with the occupied lands and the settlements. Honestly, the talk of Israel wanting peace is not obvious. The issue is that the people in Gaza 1.5 million, were the original people displaced from 1948, they are the cleansed. Just in case you do not believe that there are extremists that determine Israeli policies here is a quote from one of those mad men:
Professor Arnon Sofer, the government consultant who did so much to help plan the isolation and imprisonment of Gaza, in a interview with the Jerusalem Post in 2004: "When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human catastrophe," Sofer predicted. "Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure on the border is going to be awful. It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day." Sofer admitted only one worry with all the killing, which will, he says, be the necessary outcome of a policy that he himself helped to invent. "The only thing that concerns me," he says, "is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings."
So, when you read Dr. Amy's post on Hamas, remember the nut case extremists are on both sides, one has an army the other has "militants". Go figure.
Some of us know the history well. This was a complex issue cause not only Jews left all of us who were in Arab countries left under similar circumstances. We were not rendered stateless refugees. Our homes were not confiscated, families were not moved into our homes and we were not reduced to one room living.
It was part of a nationalist period post colonialism and frankly many of us deserved what we got cause we sided with the colonials. The fact that the nationalist movements became totalitarian is another issue.
I lived it. I remember hearing all the "expelled" lamenting that the streets were filled with Arabs and life was unlivable in Arab nations since "they raised their heads".
At issue right now: The force the IDF is using to combat Hamas in Gaza. The Israeli cabinet understands that excessive force is being used to minimize Israeli deaths so there will not be a call from the Israeli public to stop the offensive. Occupation and urban warfare is not viable. You can justify the deaths all you want, 800 deaths, thousands of casualties and destruction of schools, hospitals etc. A clear formula for ethnic cleansing.
it's not like all these 'activists' are suddenly going to get off their collective ass and initiate a referendum condemning israel and withdrawing support. in the 1st place they can't. in the second place, they don't want to, or so i suppose from the utter lack of support for democracy in the usa. so what use is talking?
it's not useless. israel broadcasts it's story relentlessly, funded by what was once american money, and if no one speaks out the truth, the zionist propaganda will be history.
that's important, because humans do have a 'fairness' gene, and the palestinian cause will get support in the face of military suppression, if they are seen to be seeking justice in their 60 year struggle against invasion, occupation, ethnic cleansing and simple murder.
their cause is not lost. there are too many jews in palestine now, to hope for a single secular state of palestine, but even hamas will accept a settlement based on a return to the '67 boundary of israel.
a lot of militant russians will oppose this, as they have made a home for themselves in the occupied west bank. america can compel them to move. 'america', in this case, is obama. if the obama regime does not act, you can stop pretending he's any different than the usual politician.
It's nice that your family didn't have your home and all of your possessions, but that's only your experience. You're not Jewish. Jews in Arab countries were stripped of everything, including the tools of their livelihood, and told to 'leave or die'.
Do you assume she isn't? You know nothing about her.
Why aren't you over in Israel halping the people you're so intense about? Will you send your children to serve in the Israeli forces?
Are you the Dr. in sheep's clothing? Or the emperor without clothes.
Stellaa, an absolutely wonderful job of responding to the comments here. Kudos.
Stellaa has posted previously on her background.
Why don't you just be truthful and quit lurking ...or better yet...here's an idea.....go write something on your OWN blog.
You don't like what people say? Go blog about it.
Or you could hang out on that infamous blog that is, this morning, shouting the Poor Us cry.
I find the reverse racism that many of today's zionists practice, as intrusive as any racism I've ever seen or experienced.
Now run along and make this an anti semitic issue and not an issue about the right wing war mongering leadership of Israel.