One of the problems with ratings is the failure to distinguish between whether you're rating the goodness of the writing or agreement with the opinion expressed. That's probably a misdesign in Open Salon, and perhaps something they should consider refining. Being able to separately flag a piece as "agree/disagree" and "good writing/bad writing" would perhaps be helpful. But there may be some people who reply to a post not wanting to promote it. And in other cases, people may just be lazy.

Given that Salon doesn't distinguish, the simplest fix would be for the system itself to add up the number of unique people commenting and add it to the number of ratings (subtracting out duplicates where someone both posted and rated, which they could presumably detect with only a small amount of work). That would make a rating more of a way of giving a small nudge to an article you didn't want to respond to, but would mean that people didn't have to remember to do both. The issue is not just rewarding the original writer, although that's important; it's also letting the public know that there's something that was worth reading.

But for now I've also bumped the rating on this post along with making this comment.

Thoughtful explanation Kent. Thanks!

Susanne,

Your reference to "a secondary kind of economy here" regarding ratings is certainly something to which I relate.

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Kent,

You definitely raised a solid distinction in the 'rating' system that would be worth consideration.

I might add as one possibility for why some people do not "rate" a post that some may merely FORGET to do it. I have done that, and then gone back to rate posts I read, but it may be that some do not.

Hm. I like to think more of the commentary I receive is positive than not, but there are definitely people who come by and post on my (psychiatry-related) blog to tell me how bad psychiatry is and how it doesn't work (or, most recently, how shallow and uneducated I am to be exploring my topics at all).

I doubt these people are meaning to give me a thumbs-up, and I wouldn't argue their right to post commentary without an obligatory stroke if they don't intend to give one.

I'm not stingy with my thumbs but I do usually prefer to hand them to people whose writing I like, not just people with whose views I agree.

Just jealous, I guess.

But more seriously, I see a lot of things rated high where there wasn't much thought put into the post, just the usual troll bait. So, in that way many if not most of the highly-rated ones I think are highly overrated.

And I just don't think to do the ratings.

Well I will continue to be extravagant with my ratings finger and comment where I can say something appreciative when moved to do so. Some blogs just beg for a great conversation. BBD definitely caused one with his recent MacGyver post, for instance. It was so good that I think we ought to have MacGyver moments as one of the topics listed under the Topics tag.

pontificatrix, I seem what you are saying, so far on my blog I haven't been trolled much, though if some read my spiritually related posts they probably would. It is surprising how intolerant people are of the realm of ideas that include spiritual beliefs.

My family taught me not to discuss politics, religion. That idea was secondary to being lady-like I think and not causing trouble, leaving the tough topics to men was never said outloud, but they were grooming me to be Don Draper's wife if he hadn't run off to have a life in New York City.

I happen to appreciate ideas different than my own. Who doesn't like having their mettle tested? It would be so nice if those people who don't like something about ideas could just keep it from being personal, wouldn't it?

I agree. Thumbs up/down is too simplistic for this level of blogging. If Open Salon really wants to go to the next level and attract qualified, informed writers, the feedback on the quality of the blog itself-- not the subject matter-- should be more detailed.

Great observation.

I think just being to able to blog and post is a great opportunity here, but I do agree with your viewpoint. I think I have carelessly left a few blogs without rating, and in reality, every post I have read is worth a thumbs up - even though some blogs get a much larger response.

Thanks for the reminder to be kind and considerate... :)

If I comment, I almost always rate. Unless I forget. But it took reading several of the meta-posts about getting on the front page, etc. to understand what it meant.

For the average reader, I'm voting it is a combination of forgetting, not wanting to necessarily promote a point of view, thinking it's interesting but not necessarily the highest quality writing, or simply having no idea what it means to "rate" a post.

What would be a killer mini-app for me would be:
Rate this post:
three easy to use sliders: quality, provocative (or discussion) value, uniqueness or creativity

Agree or disagree: is that a binary thing here on Open Salon?

yep, I'm a programmer, too.

I love the picture of the kitty looking for kitty porn on the 17" Powerbook thinking perhaps "I need thumbs...dammit!"

Actually, for those that were here in OSBeta, there was a thumbs down feature. It was met with mixed reactions. You had to be online and attentive to see who it was that gave you a thumbs down as shown in the activity feed, because there was no requirement or even a tacit understanding that if you gave a thumbs down you had to explain why. For my self, I felt it was unnecessarily negative, that if you wanted to disagree with something presented in a posting, you should have the guts to do it with words and reason and not rely on an icon to be your near blind proxy.

When I am interested enough to comment on a story I always give it a thumbs up, even if I don't agree with or like the premise of the post. If it gets me off my lazy ass fired up enough to put it into words, it's worth the rating, regardless of my opinion.

That said, and as I've mentioned on Rob St. Amant's nice piece about the OS cover, it's my opinion (and in a parallel thought--other opinions on the following are just as valid) that the goal shouldn't be ratings, tips, acclaim, money, being ported to RegularSalon™--that if those come it's gravy to the real value: to enjoy the journey, to enjoy the growing number of friends, to read some amazing stuff, and watch yourownself grow in the process. I mean, I'm not really all that Pollyannish, but I try to see the bigger picture.

Susanne, thanks for the thought on my recent post. I think it's just a fabulous hoot to see all the stories come out of such a benign innocuous posting--it really struck the memory chords of so many. And I really enjoyed the OS social aspect I find endearing...people making connections. So, thanks for that.

(Thumbs up on this post.)

I know I forget to rate posts sometimes, even though I intended to. I am trying to get into the habit of ALWAYS giving a thumbs up to posts that I consider worth reading for any reason whatsoever. The posts that don't get a thumbs up for me are those that I find offensive, posts on topics that just don't interest me, and posts that are just way too long. I realize others have different policies, but since the ratings serve to alert people to posts and not just give my absolute judgement on content/writing/style/etc. I am more inclined than not to give a post a rating.

In the final analysis, I'm not sure the 'why' of a thumbs up, whether to highlight good writing or a good point (or a bad point badly written but raising interesting discussion) matters. The thumbs up serves the purpose of drawing attention to the post. The moths fluttering to the flame soon learn which bloggers are getting thumbs for writing quality, thinking quality, or baiting a great point quality.

Thumbs away - you can always 'take away' a thumbs up should you reconsider later. Just click the thumb again, and it subtracts what you added. Betcha didn't know!

Actually I observed that when I mistakenly tried to do it a second time. I am a keen observer of what is.

bbd, Firecat was fixed long before he could develop a porn habit. However, he does like to curl around my butt and tries to spell check me for typos, rather unsuccessfully, I might add. And my laptop is password protected, so he can't run up charges on my VISA. Really, that was a picture I found online. Firecat is the kitty at the bottom who has grown into an eighteen pound longhaired, behemoth of kitty love. You can find a recent picture of him at:

http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=8427

One of the problems with the thumbs-up/down thing is that it encourages people to start new topics if they want fame and fortune rather than contributing to others' discussions. I kind of wish that individual comments in another's thread were possible to have thumbs up and down and perhaps even might be advertised on the front page if they got sufficient reviews... or perhaps a good reply could get credit to the original poster--two chances to win. ("Susanne Freeborn has attracted some high quality conversation with her post entitled 'Why comment so often, then fail to rate posts we like?'")

I haven't posted a lot here, but I tend to think my best posts are often in response to others, and so I don't aspire to ever getting any fame or glory, and yet I feel like I'm doing what the community wants. Something odd about that.

(Of course, the other reason to just start a new thread is so you can use hyperlinks, formatting, and special characters. What's with that? I can see denying me images on someone else's page, but gee... having to use hyphen hyphen rather than em dash just because I'm replying to someone else instead of writing new material. Clearly there's work still to be done refining things...)

Well Kent, I do see your point, and I think I have come upon some of the smartest things I've written responding to other people. Isn't the point the entire experience? It seems we do agree about that.

Susanne, you're one step ahead of me: I'm not sure people even SEE my posts. I can't get the Lucy image out of my mind--the idea of Lucy trying to get all the chocolates in the boxes before they fell off the conveyor belt. This is how it feels here, kind of frenetic.

As to lots of dialogue but not that many thumbs, people can't rate more than once, right? So that would explain the discrepancy.

Also, it took me a while to figure out what rate meant, what the thumbs did, what the flag meant (Yes, I flagged loads of posts there at the beginning!) And, most of all, I just usually forget to rate. I sort of wish there was a limit to content, or that people were assigned days or given certain time frames to post... or something. I just feel like I can't keep up, even though I'm spending more time here than ever!

PS to Rob St. Amant if you're around: I meant to challenge your post that said meta posts don't get attention/editor's pick/front cover. I have found the opposite to be true. Witness this post, which is well on its way. Pretty soon we'll all be living in a bubble, posting about ourselves!

Lainey,

I really get the feel you describe myself sometimes. I just take a break and hug my kitties.

LOL, Susanne,
I had to come back here to rate your post because I forgot to the first time! Which made me realize the pattern that tends to happen with me. When I comment on a post, I really don't tend to rate it--not on principle but just b/c I forget or somehow think that the comment is a plug in itself or something. It's precisely when I read a post and have nothing to say but really, really liked it that I tend to rate. Like I said, it's not an official policy of mine, it's just how it happens. I think it relates to the amount of time I spend at someone's post. Just reading it but not commenting leaves a nagging feeling that nothing tactile has happened; that flags my brain to rate.

Anyway, thumbs up! (and go read mine :)

Kent - i had a similar thought and suggested to the OS editors to feature 'top 5 comments' on the front page - another way to get posts an audience. Often I am visiting a blog and making a comment, and then see the blog owners comment feed on the left and think "What did Lonnie say was "Absolutely hilarious!" ? And I go look. This method is probably responsible for 30% of my activity on OS - all comment-led.

Well, that was a pretty funny comment to arrive at on this comment-led journey. Y'all pey attention to that Sandra Miller, she's a great writer and astute observer of all that is compelling and hilarious.

As for me and my thumbs, I've always thought of them a little like karma - if I don't thumb up others, how can I ever hope to have others thumb me up? Beyond that, I try not to keep score.

In agreement with Barry and Lonnie (and others). If I read a post all the way through, I'll rate it--figuring that it was worth a thumb if it held my attention. I might have to return later to comment due to time constraints or emergency Littlest Pet Shop toilet bowl rescuing.

I know everyone wants the Interwebs bells and whistles (threaded comments, thumbs for grammar and recipe quality and pop culture references, editable comments), but I kind of like the simplicity here.

It would be nice to have a blog rating system that has clear criteria. Perhaps breaking the system into several different types of rating would help. For instance, what about "I recommend this to other readers." "Well written." "I disagree with the content, but find this valuable information, nonetheless." "Where did this blogger learn grammar?" "Ouch! The truth hurts!" "Holy Dangling Participles, Batman!"

Seriously, I agree with Susanne that rating a blog should be more common and make a bit more sense. Just because I happen to like a particular blog doesn't mean it is written well or even makes sense. I try to balance my information gathering by reading articles and blogs from those with differing viewpoints. Should I not give them a good rating just because I disagree?

I hope the open.salon.com blog editors give this some thought.

I so appreciate how thoughtful everyone has been about this subject. When we take the time to write here, I would hope that we would appreciate the efforts one another makes and reward our peers here with some form of appreciation. I don't really want to be the one judging the grammar or usage of my cohorts here. After teaching in a chat room for years and years, where I released my inner editor for the sake of conversational flow, meaning and to be respectful to others whose reasons for being in my classes may not have extended to writing skills, I am afraid I trained myself away from noticing some kinds of errors. The comments feature here is so rudimentary that unless I write my posts in another editor, sometimes I just post to a blank email or Word doc, but most of the time I don't have time to spend that way. Perhaps those improvements will be on the way as a result of the many discussions that have ensued on topics related to blogging on OS.

Thanks everyone.

I sort of do the opposite. I often find myself rating and then not actually posting. I think of it as Salon's look at what I like to read.

That's a really tiny thumbs-up. I vote we get a proud Fonzie up in there.

Aaaaayyyy!

odetteroulette, I often just rate posts that I appreciate because I might really not have anything to add, but I do appreciate what I have gained.

conspiracychic, The Fonzie, but of course. Does that come with a side of Brillcream, and doesn't that stuff play havoc with the letters on the keyboard?

Hi Susanne:
We used to have a Most Read column on the right feed as well. Sometimes people were being read and not getting a thumbs up. They did away with (or didn't repair it when it glitched) so now we just have Top Rated. So, this is a relatively new thing at OS just to have Top Rated. Maybe some of us that had different habits will be more generous with ratings as well.

Sometimes I rate a post and don't comment -- nothing to say, but enjoyed the post. I found a post the other day where I thought I had given a thumbs up to find that I did not. So, part of it is the location of the thumbs up. I think it should be at the bottomg with the SHARE section. If we rated at the same time we looked at shares, we might share more often, (Kerry.)

We could then get into a discussion of why some people don't put much emphasis or information into their bios...

mikelpoet,

Thanks for your comment. I gotta ask. How do you mean your question? I share more about myself in my blog, for instance. I haven't figured out what I want to say in that little window. Some of what people say about themselves is so self-inflating that I don't know, does it really help?

I think the problem boils down to the WAY we read the post. Think about it...

You see a title that catches your eye.
You click on the blog, the window changes, you see the title, appropriate (or inappropriate) pictures and read the article.

Now, once you've read the article all the way through, the first thing you see at the bottom is the comment box. But, you don't want to comment until you've read all the other comments, lest you repeat what someone else has said.

Once you've read all the comments, now you're fired up to contribute what you have to say.
You scroll ALLLLLL the way back up to the comment box.
You spend 15-20 minutes crafting the perfect retort/agreement/cake recipe.
You hit "Post this comment".

The page refreshes, and you MUST go read your own comment, because you get the sudden sick feeling you wrote "you're" when you meant "your".

You write another comment lamenting the lack of ability to edit comments.

Oh yeah...
There's a little thumb ALLLLLLLL the way back at the top.
How could you forget?

(Rated and appreciated!)

Am late to this party---but after reading the comments--I still don't know any answer to your question other than the one I had when I started---sometimes I forget.

And I really shouldn't. The ratings really are a good tool.

My name is Sofia, and I approve of this post. :)

Seriously, thank you for raising this issue, Susanne. I won't take up space repeating all that I agreed with. I'll just say that I ditto bbd and Jodi most of all.

What I wonder about is flags. I suspect that some people abuse that little feature. I understand that what might offend one person doesn't bother another, but I've seen quite a few posts that get flagged for reasons I think are petty. They contain nothing that we can generally agree might irk an individual's sensibilities such as profanity or nudity.

Rather only thing that might be "offensive" is the position it takes. Or maybe it takes a shot at someone the flagger admired even though that shot is not, say, racist, sexist, etc. Or maybe it's just an attempt at humor that isn't particularly sophisticated or intellectual i.e the reader is not truly offended, s/he is just not impressed and so flags the post out of an elitist fit.

IMHO, labeling something offensive for such petty reasons bothers me much more than failure to rate, and I suspect that it happens more often than we would like to think within this community of smart and mature folks.

Case in point: why would anyone flag THIS post ?????

Thanks Sofia,

On two occasions I have flagged a Troll who was posting the same nasty comment repeatedly in various places. But I can't imagine flagging anything that isn't abusive, and even if I did, I respect that there must be a policy here and it isn't up to me to enforce it. I just don't care for racist, misogynist or homophobic rants and if they were a regular feature here, I wouldn't be a regular.

Flagging as a thumbs down sounds downright reactionary to me. And, there are some completely reactionary "progressives" in the blogosphere, aren't there!

I have also been treated like a troll for having an opposing point of view,and had my comments deleted by someone here who is particularly creative and generally thoughtful but wasn't able to see where I was coming from at all. It happens, people misunderstand us sometimes. What they do next, that's their character showing, don't you think?

For me, it's taken awhile to get the immensity of the site--all the possibilities. It's also taking me awhile to get a good look at the overall quality--when is something really above the mark? Does that make me niggardly? (Wonder when I last had the guts to use that word.) If I rate every post I read, what good are my ratings? I wonder what would happen if they had, "ok, fine, great, and fantastic" as ratings? But so far, I'd say, over all Open Salon has knocked me out with the quality--and it's so nice to see the maniacs haven't arrived, and hopefully never will.

I gotta go with Jodi on this - the page refreshes. If you comment first and rate second, it's alot of "extra" work. And who, in this day and age of constant point-click-type-point-click-type has time for that? :)

Thanks for this post Susanne, and thanks for everyone's comments. I know we also want to add a "Most comments" view of OS. I would like to put the rating button back at the bottom of the post as well, not just at the top. I think having it at the top flags it's important, but I know I sometimes forget, as well. And we will begin showing "Most read" again when it's fixed, but I personally love "Top rated." I also find myself finding great post by watching the left rail, and seeing how people I respect are rating and commenting. That's become more important than I ever envisioned.

Well, one cannot feel that ones efforts have been in vain with results like these.

Joan Walsh, I am sure that your response to our comments here mean a similar thing to everyone, and in a similar way, that you understand and appreciate our contributions here.

Having this post become "top rated" is actually instructive in some of the qualities that seem to make that occur.

Being responsive to comments, as if there is a conversation going on here, rather than simply a series of letters, that seems to keep a post listed on the left column of the front page. And I know that is where I check to see what is "live" and/or new. Good questions are often more provocative than simply a story too and open up and expose the thought processes of participating writers.

All in all, I had a wonderful experience with this post and felt that I got to know a few people a little because their comments inspired me to go to their blogs and wander around.

Thanks so much to everyone, and thanks for dropping by to see our conversation Joan!