Here's what I have to say about this: I personally never wear anything that reveals anything I don't want everyone to see. Make sense? I think mystery is sexy. And I've said it before, paraphrasing the old quote about "Gee, I bet those would look great in a sweater." I like wearing sweaters.

Therefore, if someone is showing it, they must want you to look at it. No fair picking and choosing WHO looks. I save most viewing for the one who matters. But you know me, I'm old-fashioned. :-)

Outside Myself,

And I will always say to you that HE is a very lucky dude. I am just waiting for an explanation to the new law.

Well, of course I have no explanation for a "law" I think is ridiculous - men CAN'T know. Period. So again, ladies, don't show what you don't want seen. Ya know?

"The Law" is a persnickety little asshole that can't make up it's mind. The rules change so quickly that the very idea of a rule has become irrelevant, hence the anarchy about sexual mores in our society. Some of the feminist authors from the 80's and 90's have much to answer for and not just for the girls' ridiculous ideas of empowerment but for the virtual castration of boys' libidinous thoughts as well. I've always said that photons are free and so long as someone (male or female) isn't being overtly creepy there is no harm done.

Oh for fuck's sake! This is some major BullShit (not your post, the "law") Its the old bait and switch, just under a different facade.

First of all, when I'm in public someone has to be REALLY staring at me for me to notice, I get too involved in what I'm doing. Even something as "everyday" as buying TP and Dog treats. Also, I'm os self-centered that I think everyone is staring a hole in my ass. (no reflection on your neighbors daughter) And to be honest, the RARE times that I have seen a man admiring me from a distance, I smile and consider it flattering.

If women are getting their panties in knot over mere "looking" (NO, I don't mean uninvited touching or following, just LOOKING) they need to wake up and get the fuck over it.

:) Great post, Thoth! Pawed!

Darryl Ross,

You have no argument from me there. Well said.
Thank you for the informed insight.

And and I forgot this "idea" . . . .Women, dress however you want, but please don't bitch when someone glances up your mini skirt or stares at your breasts that are barely covered by your too small halter top. No one is saying you need to wear a burka, but damn dressing like a hoochie isn't a good thing. Use some common sense.

I sympathize with how this can be confusing for many guys, but here is the thing: the WAY you look at someone means something.

This is not, ultimately, about WHO can look. It is about HOW they look, and the HOW defines whether a girl wants them to look (even if she is wearing baggy sweatpants and a turtleneck and maybe a baggy sweatshirt on top of that and a big floppy hat and sunglasses).

But I think we can all agree that we have been looked at in ways we don't like. It just happens that this sort of thing happens, currently, more to girls, because we don't have the luxury of not being sex objects for most people.

When a guy looks at you like you're not a person, it feels horrible. You feel dirty, and if you're polite you look away and stop smiling and if you're not (like me) you yell a few obscenities and still feel kinda crappy.

It is very different, to be looked at with desire and to be looked at as if you are not a person. These are not the same thing. Most guys do not understand this because they either wouldn't do it, or because they have yet to come to the conclusion that women are people (yes, seriously. I've known quite a few of those types, and for some reason, some guys just don't quite get it. I think those guys are the ones making it hardest for decent guys who are confused by the idea.)

Here's a good example: I am walking down the street and I see a man and his teenage son staring at me. It is a bit creepy. As I pass, I hear the son say (not even in a whisper) to his father, "Wanna bet those aren't real?" That shit's rude. And it hurts. And it's treating me like I'm not a person, like I didn't even hear it, and why would anyone do that to a complete random stranger anyways?

I think that sums it up.

Suzieq - you hit the nail on the head! My original reply mentioned something about OVERT voyeurism. What those two did to you was inexcusable and I can't decide which one of them deserves a bigger kick to the nards - the Father for allowing this behaviour or the Son for assuming that it was a suitable way to talk about a fellow human walking down the street, minding his/her own business. A discreet glance in your direction followed by a comment or two when you were well out of range would have meant that none was the wiser and everyone could continue with their busy little day. People are programmed to look at pretty things but there's no need to be an asshole about it.

LadyMiko,

You tell'm.
I also agree that a glance of admiration from a distance should naturally trigger a smile. This in fact is the case in Europe and most of the world. Are you part French?

Thank you Lady Miko.

Okay, okay. I have a lot to say about this one so bear with me :)

First, it's not a fair law. If you are going to flaunt it, dudes are gonna stare. Can't ask them to look and then hate them if they do. Girls do this all the time with other things as well. I'm no exception. I've caught myself getting my panties in a twist for this sort of thing before. But... when I thought about why, I think I came to a conclusion.

I think it's that ladies don't like the ORDER things happen in. We want to be noticed. We want some guy at the coffee shop, book store, club, or what have you, to think we are special. To think we are smart and beautiful and funny and sweet. THEN! And only then. Do we want them to give us the once over. We want them to think "Hey this chick really has herself together. This is the kind of woman I've been looking for. She seems perfect from what I can tell and... now that I'm looking, she is one of the most sexy women I've seen in a long time." It's the same thing as Susie said. If they treat you and recognize you as a person FIRST, then thinking you're sexy and wanting to view you with x-ray vision BECAUSE she's worth something is one thing. Thinking she's worth something because of what you imagine with your x-ray vision is totally different. They are opposites.

The problem here, however, lies in that we as women are crazy for thinking a) men are not as visually stimulated as they really are, b) they'll get to know us first before they see us... hello... the first things you know about a person you meet somewhere is how they look. Nothing to be done about that, and c) that MEN are somehow not real people. What I mean by that, is that when one of these women walk into a place with cheeks hangin out and boobs showing all but nipple, EVERYONE stares. Even the completely straight females. Because it's... attention grabbing. Which is the point. Watch next time as even the ladies all turn their heads (and sometimes even start whispering... or whipping their heads around to make sure their man isn't looking). So for that to be the case and then somehow it's the MEN (the ones who are turned on by it in the first place) who are not supposed to take notice is complete foolishness.

Anyway, wanting to be a real person first, and a sex object second is why your neighbor girl doesn't mind being watched by her boyfriend and his friends. Because she assumes (probably incorrectly) based on the fact that she KNOWS them and is friends with them, that they value her as a person first and foremost. And so THEN when they are checking her out, she takes it as a compliment. Because not only do they think she's a cool person, she's also beautiful. See? Hey. I'm not saying women are the ideal specimens of logic and objectivity. I'm just stating things as I see them :)

But last, and not really least, is a note to men. Don't stare. Don't gawk. What I'm about to say is just the way of it for better or worse: If you want a woman to take it as a compliment, spend a lot of time talking to her EYES and smiling at her and then maybe give her a once over quicklike and tell her she looks stunning tonight. Then don't linger on it. Say something like "Wow, it's not very often I meet someone who can carry on an intelligent conversation, seems sweet as can be, and still looks so beautiful in a dress (looking her over tastefully). I'm glad I met you, Stacy. So... how're you liking the music? This is actually my favorite local band." This way, she feels like you value her as a person, think she's beautiful, but don't want to stop there. You really want to get to know her. The opposite of what a girl wants to hear is "Hey I saw you from across the bar and you are really beautiful. Can I buy you a drink?" That says to her that you're looking to get laid, scanned the bar, and figured her an easy enough catch. She'll probably take the drink then head back to her friends.

Also, and this is just my old fashioned morals, but... don't just hook up with random ladies. Not unless you're sure that's all she wants too. In which case the easy pick up lines probably work because she's just as eager to hop into bed and walk back out the door as you are. It's not really fair, though, to do the things I listed above in order to FOOL a girl into thinking you think she's worth something more, when, in fact, you just want sex and any decent looking vagina will do. It's why women struggle in these areas so much. Maybe we wouldn't be so fickle as to who can look at us how and when if we knew that the guys who are just gawking aren't going to bother us, and the guys who are giving us real attention legitimately want to get to know us and are interested. The problem comes when guys act one way to get into a girls' pants and then she realizes the next day it was all just smooth talk. It gets frustrating and so up go all these defenses about not wanting anyone to look at us even though we so desperately want someone to look at us. In the end, we want to be cherished. Not ogled at.

Hint: if you THINK of women as valuable and having real hurts and loves, then you'll LOOK at her like that too. If you're having a problem where women seem to think you stare at them like they're a piece of meat... it's probably because you think of them as meat. Make sense?

Disclaimers: There are plenty of women who just want to have sex, no stings attached. Find them. Don't hunt the rest like prey to be devoured. And no, I don't think this excuses women who make the poor and unbelievable choice to dress like a whore and then get pissed when she's treated like one.

P.S. WOMEN LIKE TO BE CHASED!!! DO NOT LISTEN TO THOTH ABOUT THAT, MEN! Just don't be a total creep when you do it. If she isn't interested, yeah, you'll get turned down or given a fake number. But so what. You think EVERYONE is going to be attracted to you? Get over it! Your being rejected doesn't mean those days of women wanting to be chased are gone. It just means she wasn't into you. Keep looking. Sure there are plenty of women who don't mind being the pursuer. But there are plenty who do. I'm one of them.

I WANT to be pursued. The chase is the best part!!! I will not EVER make the first move. If you want to go out with me, ask me. If you want to talk to me, call me. Cuz I won't be picking up the phone to call you. Even if I'm dying to hear your voice. If you want to get in bed with me, you best start taking off my clothes cuz I'm not about to start. WARNING!!! HEED THIS: THERE MUST BE SOME RETURNED SENTIMENTS WHEN YOU PURSUE. Do not start taking off a girl's clothes who's given you NO reason to think she wants you. Do NOT start obsessively calling a woman assuming she's letting you do the pursuing, when, in fact, she never bothers picking up the phone or even if she does, she seems totally disinterested. If she's into you, even if she lets you chase her, she'll make it obvious. No dude ever wondered if I liked him or not. She'll be seductive, flirty, and lead you on. If she's not, walk away.

Sorry. Told you I had a lot to say ;) How was that, Thoth. Too much? Sorry for saying you're wrong about chasing. But you are ;) In the end, every female is an individual. She has her own needs and desires and preferences. If you treat women like this instead of putting them in a box of "who women are and what they want," you'll do far better. Both relationally and sexually. Meet HER needs. Not "Woman's."

this is a serious problem. in traditional societies, girls didn't have to advertise, the process of selecting a mate was happening as they grew, family and friends making a match almost automatically.

time's have changed, and 'sex sells' in a commercial society has filed off the edges of modest attire, so that young women are under pressure to put the goods in the window.

unfortunately, there has not been a parallel growth of manners in the male half of the commercial society. so women have a difficult choice to make, between maximizing potential boyfriends, and reducing the stress of being a side of lamb in the shop window.

i see no solution, it's just a rite of passage young women must make. for consolation, young men have their challenges too. modern society is not a comfortable place to grow up.

Could NOT agree more, al loomis!

Susie makes some excellent points. It is about HOW one looks at someone. All females have had looks which have made chills go up and down their spines.

The law is simple: Don't look at a female the same way a creepy old man would look at a little boy. You should know the look I'm talking about. In this regard, it matters little how the female is dressed. So, if you don't want your 8-year-old son getting certain looks from dirty men, don't be a dirty man who gives females that same look. Between us (and everyone else who reads OS), I started getting those looks at about the age of 8 as I developed early. At 38, no matter how I'm dressed, I still get that look and it's still creepy.

One of the problems women have faced since time immemorial is that to appear lovely and sexually available for one man is the threat that all men will assume she is sexually available for them. This is no idle threat. Modern times have shown women harassed by police and rapists go unpunished because a woman was suggestively dressed. We want and deserve the right to look and feel sexy without being abused and hurt by predators. We also want to have value as a human. A look, a glance of appreciation, should never demean our humanity.

Rated for being a thought-provoking post.

Yes. Also what R Lady said. There is a lot of truth there. Wise woman :)

My ex-fiance never understood this. I... uh... have a lovely and ample bosom. And when he'd take me out on dates (especially for special occasions), I'd make the utmost of the figure God gave me, framing my breasts for his viewing pleasure. And I would almost ALWAYS regret that decision and feel humiliated and spend the evening covering up with a jacket because of some raunchy stare from someone the gift was never intended for. It IS possible, that a woman really and truly DOES want her affections to only come from one man, but, by nature of being in public, other men feel she is automatically public fare for gawking. It's unfortunate. But I guess in the practical sense, we as women either have to deal with those looks or we have to make the decision to save it for when we get home. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's just the way of life.

Not meaning to sound like Anne Landers here but I think half the problem of the two sexes gittin' it on is the lack of basic manners. WIKYAAK makes some valid points but her argument seems desultory, at best. Chase us, no wait, don't. Treat me like a princess except I really mean that you should treat me like a whore if I feel like running in that direction. It all seems to be a power-play wherein those that hold the aces wind up the winner. Most of us (men and women) have played this game for millions of years. A little more honesty about the game we pretend not to play would result in a shit-load less angst and a boat-load of happier coupling.

Wish I Knew You As A Kid,

First I must thank you so much for such a wonderful and very CLEAR response, and I mean that sincerely.

Second, I do not disagree with you on any point. In fact I agree with all your introduced arguments as well. I even agree with you that many if not most women love the "chase."

Yet, chasing a woman is both an art and a science. I cannot advice men to chase women before I give them a detailed manual, may be in an other post.

My most important observation and core issue is this. The girls/women in question want the men who look (familiars or strangers) TO BE THE ONES THEY WOULD LIKE. I am very serious, this is the new "thing." In other words, "How dare he looks at my body, he SHOULD KNOW that I will not like him if I met him."

Thanks again, great argument.

WalkAwayHappy,

Surely, some women agree with you, but with this comment you are now aces in any man's book.

Thanks for telling it like it is.

Well. Is it so much a power play, or... as I stated earlier, is it that every woman is different and needs to be treated differently? And that even throughout her life, throughout the relationship, and throughout her joys and heartaches in life, her needs may change too? I can see why that ends up seeming like a power play to men, and I think often times it is. But sometimes a woman wants to be sweet and loved and sometimes she wants to be on the prowl. It doesn't mean she's playing games. It means she's a living and fluid person. Also, whatever one woman tells you she needs, another woman is bound to tell you something else and it's terribly confusing. But it's because we're not all the same. Females are VERY complex and (as much as we like to pretend we do) we do not always even understand ourselves. It's baffling, I know. And any attempts to explain our behavior intensify the problem. However, please don't be so quick to assume that it's all a game. Trust me. Guys aren't the only ones who wish there was more honesty in the "game we pretend not to play." Women run around all the time wondering why some man did x, y, or z when his intentions were a, b, or c. I am young. I have not been playing this game for millions of years (thank God), but I'm not a fool either. While my arguments may seem to some to be desultory, I'm in fact making no arguments at all (save, women like to be chased). I'm simply clarifying that if we SEEM complicated, wishy-washy, and fickle, it's because we are. And that's just life. It's not to be difficult. It's because we are complex like nobody's business. There is much money to be made for the man (or even woman) who can pin down the female psyche. But there are common threads: think we are beautiful, but treat us like we are more than meat, don't degrade us but respect us. Doesn't sound desultory to me.

Well Thoth... those would be the women to whom I would say "Are you serious? Put some friggin clothes on or stop complaining." ;)

incandescent,

I definitely agree with you on preferring to be pursued.

And ladies, incandescent's observation/experience about getting a woman to talk to him is also TRUE and calls for an explanation from a woman's point of view.

Thanks for the comment, incandescent.

Wish I Knew You As A Kid,

Referring to your comment that begins with, "Well. It is so much a powerplay..."

Now, we're talking, Wish I Knew You As A Kid. Do not sell yourself short. This piece (comment) is one of the most insightful I have ever read addressing the female behavior. In fact I recommend all the "guys" to read it.

Well said, very informative.

susieqtpi,

Darryl beat me to it.

Thank you for a thoughtful comment.

Wish I Knew You, don't sell me short, sometimes I like to play the Devil's Advocate. I know where you're coming from on this issue (been there on the flip-side) and it seems that nothing but healthy discourse has followed. If we were "important" folks we'd be sipping beers at the White House, but I digress...My original point was that although people like to look at other attractive people, it doesn't give them carte blanche to be dicks about it. The sexes will never get the true handle of one another but a little civility goes an awfully long way. Cheers!

al loomis,

The premise of my post (in the intro) supposes that the males in question are not obnoxious or sexists or perverts and in my conclusion I, like you, advocate males of all ages to act like gentlemen.

Moreover, our teenage girls are the least respected by their counterparts in the civilized world and even the not so civilized world. Some attribute that to the "jocks" versus the "cheerleaders" culture, materialism,...

I am hoping for even a little chivalry to be introduced in our young men.

I appreciated your insight.

RenaissanceLady,

I agree that girls/women should not have to deal with male sexism or perversion. In a civilized society this should be a given. Yet, As we ask our men to be respectful, honorable and even chivalrous, we also hope that our women will prefer and seek a man with these qualities. After all, peacocks have these big beautiful tails only because peahens demanded so.

Thanks for your comment.

Thoth
First, I guess I am a really old broad. I was unaware of the NEW Law. As you have pointed out to us in many of your posts, it is the female who chooses to mate, not the male, I expect that as the culture devolves, young women are becoming more aggressive and thus the overreaction to “the look”. I can only take an amateur stab at explaining the hypothesis.
Respectful interaction is always encouraged. The old stereotype of the wolf whistling construction workers may seem to have morphed into, ‘all men are pigs until I decide otherwise’.
Teen-age girls are not women. They have the brain of two year olds in a woman’s body. They can’t help that the amygdula has taken over. Temper tantrums and tragedy lurk around every corner in their little reptilian brains. The NEW Law you refer to is the old law of the toddler: ‘I am the center of the universe and you’d better know that or I will throw the fit of the century’.
If there are grown women out there who still behave in this silly fashion, mark it up to stunted emotional growth.
Most women are complimented by attention and if it is inappropriate or rude, we can walk away and ignore the bastard. Making some crude asshole’s immaturity and crassness my problem is just childish. I say, don’t give any power to the behavior.
My boyfriend would probably tell you , he is complimented in his choice of me as his mate when another man notices and admires me. I, on the other hand am not all that aware of anyone looking at me because I have made my selection. I want him! This is not to say when I receive a gracious compliment or even playful flirting from another man, I do not appreciate it. But I am the one in control of how it plays out. Truth be known, the compliment that really matters to me is the one I get from my mate.
No matter how old we get, we still seem to pair up in favor of a diverse gene pool. Yes, even long after we are able or willing to procreate. It seems to me, that rule still stands. And yes, women make the final decision as to whose genes are the best for her. Perhaps the NEW Law is an extreme interpretation of the OLD Law.
Dressing provocatively is designed to attract. Dressing like a frump will get you the same result. There will always be some one will look at you and the look will not be appreciated. So what!
If you are male, you look and it is not appreciated or it is received with indignation; her problem, not yours. You can walk away with your ego intact. There will always be women (and I do mean the plural ‘women’) out there who will pick you. They will not only want you to look, they will demand it!

Thoth: I don't know, I was adopted and was told different stories about my background. I've been asked if I'm spanish, french, greek, etc . . .I just don't know. I'm just a Mutt. :D

Oh and I wanted to correct something in my first comment "I'm NOT so self centered that I think everyone is staring a hole in my ass"- that sentence was all messed up. I type too fast. LOL

Rainee 174,

Surely, cognitive development is much in play for teen girls. I hope the issue is confined to the teen years in women as you pointed out. At least adult women do not share our famous cultural infantilism.

Thank you for a clever response.

LadyMiko,

It was a compliment. French or not, you're way too cool.

Fascinating conversation going on here. My feminist hackles were quivering, but they've settled back down again. ;)

I whole-heartedly agree about looking once in appreciation. That is all that is necessary. I'm not above slapping people (usually verbally) who have the bad manners to stare at my ass, legs or breasts. I don't flaunt them often, but they are, I'm told, quite pleasant to look at.

Even if a woman's letting it all hang out there, it's just bad manners to stare. Didn't your mothers teach you that? Stare at me and I'll whip your ass into next week. Look at me in appreciation and I'll feel flattered.

Hope that's clear enough...

My Bratz dolls don't mind if I stare as long as I give them a pack of Parliaments.

AshKW,

I think we all agree here that this is not about obnoxious sexists. They should be a thing of the past.

Kudos on the "pleasantness" and on the fact that you can take care of these assholes, and most of all, on the manner you do it.

Thanks for the comment.

Thoth- Excellent play on the age old art of ogling ! I hate to be the one to interject more parity between the sexes , but women stare too. Trust me, as a former college athlete who has worked out in many of public gyms with mirrors, women stare too. As far letting women chase you, single guys take warning, you have to put up a filter to women who chase you. A larger than normal percentage of these women turn out to be a little less than sane :)

But some (like Mrs. Wanderer) turn out to be perfectly sane and wife material. She asked me out and 9 years and one child later, I am glad she did.

Kudos, Thoth, Kudos. Thumbed.

Paraphrasing comedian Dave Chappell :
If I'm standing on the corner in a policeman's uniform, should I be offended if you want me to come catch the guy who stole your car?

If your standing on the corner dressed like a.......

just a joke!! take it easy!!

Yep, sadly for most guys in this situation..."you're damned if you do and damned if you don't!"

I have 3 daughters and I would bet, they would all have different answers. For me, just an old fashioned girl (heh), I don't mind men checking out my assets "subtly" (emphasis on the " " word).

There's a fine line between feeling complimented and just plain creeped out!

Good luck, fellas!

The Wanderer,

Yup, I remeber that, and screening is better than confusion.
Thanks for your support.

john walker,

That was a very funny stand-up, and David actually has a good point. Thanks for the comment.

Just Cathy,

"There's a fine line between feeling complimented and just plain creeped out!"

I think, at least among women, so far, this statement accurately explains how women feel.

Thanks Cathy.

On the whole "women chasing men" thing. It all washes out anyway. If you end up chasing a woman, it's a 90% chance it's because she's been floating subtle cues in your direction anyway.
She's chasing you; you're chasing her. The two genders just chase differently. As long as you're not a pathetic hounddog, I think it's pretty even either way.

On the looking issue...I'm a very tender romantic with a vivid imagination (a little too "Walter Mitty') and if I gaze too long it's because I'm looking too fondly, not looking to fondle.

I only wear things that show what I'm comfortable displaying, but I've still had a few moments like your neighbor's daughter ( in a turtleneck sweater,and mom jeans, no less). An appreciative glance is one thing, leering is quite another.

If you're looking at a woman the way a starving man looks in a butcher shop window- it's probably not going to be taken well.

I'm like a one-eyed cat peepin in a seafood store...
I'm like a one-eyed cat peepin in a seafood store...
I can stare at you till you ain't no child no more ...
- Shake, Rattle & Roll

I think women just need to decide how they want to look in public and then own that look.

Last year while I was eating lunch at an outdoor table a young lady and her friend were seated nearby. The young lady had on jeans that were so tight and so low-cut that when she sat down about two inches of butt crack were visible above the top of her pants. She then proceeded every fifteen seconds to pull down the back of her shirt in order to try to conceal said butt crack.

But why? I say, if you're going to dress so as to reveal the butt crack, then own the butt crack. Go with the butt crack. Celebrate the butt crack. If you don't want to reveal the butt crack, then wear different pants. One way or the other.

I am with Mishima and Lady Miko on this one; if you want to dress like a hoochie............................

Don't Blame Grima,
You're too kind, thanks for the comment.

Peppermint,
The majority agrres with you. Thanks for the comment.

noah tall, nice...poem.

Don Rich, thanks for the comment.

mishima666,

Now this "repeated pulling on shirts and pants coveing up shit in public" is really ridiculous, stupid and very unattractive. I agree.

Thanks for playing.

I have yet to receive a comment that says,

"Girls/women want only winners (rich guys) to look, they don't want loosers to look."

Ok Thoth I will bite . . . Evolution has trained women to seek out mates that can "invest," the most of his resources in her potential offspring, thus the phenomenon of PAWs (penis and wallet) women in modern society. Just to be fair the same process has trained men to look for certain physical attributes that correlate with fertility and certain physical aspect useful in feeding young infants.
Let me just say that humans, as a species , are/have been so successful, because one the largest evolutionary advantages is having two parents to divide child rearing duties. Thus we have the concept of the pair bond.

You see all we really need is love.

Full disclosure, I am on a lot of pain medication for my messed back right now, may be slightly euphoric :)

The Wanderer,

Good point, I agree.

I just wish that girls grow up looking for clean, well-groomed, well-mannered, romantic, NICE guys, rather than the "beg, borrow and steal robber barons." This will change the culture in favor of women by putting assholes out of fashion.

Okay Toth, I've read and re-read your post and the comments and THINK I'm ready to respond.

You asked my opinion as a parent. (Just sos ya know, I have raised many young adults, male and female)

Some of my kids I gave birth to (three) so I had the advantage of knowing and shaping them from day one. One of my kids I adopted at three (but her situation is slightly different because of her Asperger's). The rest (six) came into our home and lives from various backgrounds and at ages ranging from six to nineteen. Some came and went and came and went but all of them consider us their parents and the consistent adults in their lives.

My point here is that all of them are different from each other. Even the biologicals. Each one needed more or less of this and that. Especially when it came down to sexuality and all of the innumerable and complex lessons as they developed physically and emotionally. Much like society as a whole, I'm guessing.

In a nut shell, here's what we tried to convey to them all:

Girls: You are responsible for how you are viewed in the world. Period. Sex is a natural, and in the right situations, a wonderful, necessary, and glorious thing. Men will look. It's nature. Do you want men to "over look"? If not, don't put all your assets on display for ALL men (and women). If you respect yourself, and who you are, own that. There is a time and place (the beach, for example) to show it ALL, if you choose. The most attractive women are the ones with confidence. So? Take care of yourself, own who you are. Men will look. It's the law of nature. You don't have to lay your boobs on the table to get noticed.

The biggest battle to face today raising girls? MTV and on line porn. Lots of American girls think they have to be "bitches and whores" to keep up. The young girls hear one thing from their peers and another from, hopefully, their parents. I feel bad for them. It must be very confusing.

Boys: Be respectful. Period. Try to see beyond the beautiful bodies into the person you are encountering. Treat women as feeling human beings. Despite what MTV and online porn promote, all girls are not "bitches and whores."

I also feel bad for the boys. Hormones are tough to over come with intellect. Especially when a sweet pair of boobs is looking you right in the face. Mantra: respect, respect, respect.

I also have a basic theory that we discuss (and discussion - back and forth - is encouraged). Young men and young women have sex for completely different reasons. Men want, and need, to reproduce. It's nature. Young women, even the very sexually active ones, are looking for love. Both need to understand the other and what drives them. So? Are you ready for all the complexities and the learning curve? If so, wear protection.

It should be noted here that I understand these points are simplistic. The goal here is for the young people to develop a sense of respect. For themselves and for the opposite sex. From there? Well, it's a good start. The rest is really up to them. Personal responsibility is a learned thing. I am not saying that men do not want, nor look for, love. Early on tho? It's pretty much sex.

How does this relate to the "new rules" you laid out? Hmmmm...I guess your rules, as rainee 174 pointed out, are really the same old rules, just re-interpreted.

Just to be clear, we didn't expect our girls to wear old fashioned ankle length dresses and high collars. Their choice of fashion was their own. But I was never shy about saying something along the lines of, "I can see your ass crack in those pants. If I can see it, so can everyone else." Mostly, we didn't have to deal with it too much. I did notice that some of my girls went through a stage of exhibition, usually short lived. And, some of my boys hooked up with undeniable beautiful, yet not long term compatible, girls. Also, usually short lived.

So when I see teens and early twenties acting like hormone driven sex maniacs I chalk it up to nature. I feel bad for the girls who feel the need to display it all and also for the boys who whoop and holler and haven't been taught manners. These behaviors will not serve them well in the LONG run. Hopefully, most of them will mature. In order to do that tho I believe they need role models.

Beyond the early twenties? I see those behaviors as indicators of what hubby likes to call "bad potty training." People who have less knowledge of how to really pursue a lasting relationship. But, who am I to judge them? Maybe it's not love they are looking for.

Ahhh...I ramble. Life is so full of complexities for young people trying to make their way in the world. Well, make that all people.

"The biggest battle to face today raising girls? MTV and on line porn. Lots of American girls think they have to be "bitches and whores" to keep up." gracielou

"Boys: Be respectful. Period. Try to see beyond the beautiful bodies into the person you are encountering. Treat women as feeling human beings. Despite what MTV and online porn promote, all girls are not "bitches and whores." gracielou

"Young men and young women have sex for completely different reasons. Men want, and need, to reproduce. It's nature. Young women, even the very sexually active ones, are looking for love." gracielou

gracielou

I am so gald you brought up the MTV/bitches-whores point. It is so deep in our culture but everyone prefers to ignore it. We all agree with your second statement. The third is a statement of FACT. I know we are going to get this bull about "generalizations" and "stereotypes." No, it is a FACT.

Yours are true simple observations, the best kind. They are emperical and factual; they are NOT simplistic by any stretch.

Thank you so much for taking the time to give us such an informed response. This should be a stand alone post.

Thankfully, the "law" isn't really a law, so nobody can enforce it, they can only complain.
Some people will be rude, and that's life.
But real feminism is about equality for women and men. Equality is great, but the fact of the matter is, there are differences. One of the major cultural differences is that men usually pursue women more than women pursue men. So many women are tired of men expressing their attraction, especially when the majority of the men who express said attraction are not desirable; men, however, are for the most part not tired of women expressing their attraction. At least, that's been my experience.
But as long as it is just looking, well, we may complain, but we are all aware that most people aren't mind readers.

Thanks Thoth.

I sure wish someone had written some kind of manual for us. The lessons we learned were all trial and error. Like most, I guess.

Our theories have served the kids, and us, well, I think. We've watched alternately in horror and awe as our children have navigated thru adolescence and, now, young adulthood.

One advantage of a large, close family (they all range in ages from 27 to 20) is that they DO have each other. They give one another a lot of advice. That helps.

Thanks for writing this post. And for the conversation it inspired.

Seriously dude, we need to have beers together one day...
and stare at scantly clad women. ;)

Love and hugs,
Mungular
rated.

Mungular,

That will be a dream come true; you are my hero.

Thanks Mungular,

I really was wondering if nobody else caught that it is not a WOMAN who said this, but a teenage girl. NOT the same. Then (whew) rainee174 finally said it.

Why do scantily-clad girls get mad when men look? I don't get it. Granted, I've never been in the situation, having neither the body for it, nor the wardrobe (this latter part I'm sure pleases all who don't have to see things they'd rather not see).

Great post as always!

MyOnlyOutlet,

Oh, I agree with you and with Rainee174. Yet these "scantily-clads" grow up so fast, they are the women of the future.

Thanks for your comment.

I’m not Madison’s age but I can relate. “How any male could know whether he is “invited” to look at a woman’s body?” Eye contact, if you weren’t invited to look (and you’ll get it with her eyes). If not visually invtited, don’t do it.

The death by sword for guys are the girls who live by a standard, but dress like a slut. This, quite frankly, is where the parent (preferably the dad) says “you are not going out in that…” That small gem of wisdom helps the boys as well as the girls.

NOVAcatmando,

Sorry I missed your comment. I agree the parents should have a major role in teaching their offspring the rules of the game.
Thank you for your comment and visit.