
This is a re-edit of one of my earliest posts here. Because of Pride Week and cu rrent topics of conversation and the fact that I posted it before anyone really read my posts, I'm bringing it out. It's a little wordy but the basic ideas are what I believe to be at the core of homophobia, religious tension, and the gay marriage debate. There is much more to be said but this was already a long start. Hope it is of some help on understanding the subject.
Some may ask the importance of recognizing the difference between religious objection and homophobia. The answer lies in the difference in reaction the two beliefs engender. It is my belief that while someone may, following the precepts of their religion, come to the belief that same gender sex is sinful or to use a phrase from Paul in the New Testament "not expedient." That same person may in addition have an irrational response to others who have come to a different conclusion and may espouse or practice same gendered sexuality. Let's take the belief that it is sinful to eat pork as an example. One, following the teachings of their religion, may conclude that it is sinful to partake of the delicious little critter, but in this day and age their response is often less reactionary than that of the average viewer of the new extreme eating shows that have come out. They are less "creeped out" by my eating a ham sandwich than I am of watching Tony Bordaine eat a lambs eyeballs. Yet they are acting on a religious belief that theoretically has much more power to effect them than my non-dogmatic belief that eating eyeballs is just gross. Rarely if these days does a Muslim or Jew advocate punishment for others for not following their religious dietary laws. They don't have a phobic reaction to my diet just a religious difference.
Same gender sex in the same way might be accurately seen as a sin by the followers of some religions it however seems to evoke an additional reaction to that, "scholarly" response...another reaction that extends beyond the basic belief as it is currently practiced. I say currently practiced because many of the rules and regulations listed in these religious texts are now less adhered to and evoke a less dramatic response than they did in the past. Of course if one is riding through the hot desert a pack animal laden with pork and shell fish is a hell of a bad idea, yet now that we have modern refrigeration many a good Jew eats lobster without guilt. Religion, as practiced, is often practical. Laws that at one point seemed to be "written in stone" with the passage of time and circumstance go by the wayside or are modified so as to be in keeping with modern life. It became less practical to keep kosher at the same time that it became less necessary and large groups of that religion moved away from the orthodoxy and into a more practical observance.
So what the hell does a ham sandwich have to do with hating homos? I'm glad you asked. Just as practical observance gained momentum in practicing dietary laws it has facilitated other lifestyle changes among the religious. It is the increased visibility of same gender couples that has made homophobia less practical. It is one thing to despise the faceless dirty lecher that is still the official poster child of those who appose basic rights for those who love someone of the same gender and another altogether to advocate the beating to death of your child's second grade teacher. As gays and lesbians insisted on living their lives openly and honestly the human cost of a homophobic response became more apparent. The non-scholarly more emotional response to what may be considered by some to be sinful became less practical and less savory to practice. As gays and lesbians came out of the closet and as the early years of the AIDS epidemic pushed many more out of the closet the price of combining hate with religious belief became more than some were willing to pay. As homophobia became more personal it became less palatable.
As picky as we may be about eating, sex is a much more emotional subject. Sex is so deeply tied into self awareness and self worth. It is a mine field of dangerous topics like penis size, the meaning of manhood, the purity of women, internalized homosexual desire and self loathing. "What?! Internalized homosexual desire? Come on, are you trying to call me a fag? I oughta.... " And there you have it mine field. The real line in the sand between a reasoned belief that your religion finds same gendered sex to be a sin and the sphincter tightening response to man on man action is what the internalized imagery tells you about yourself. These probably mis-titled phobic responses have less to do with someones reasoned belief in dogma and ideology and more to do with the fear of their own responses. Take, for example, two well dressed women looking at a third poorly put together woman. The first is horrified, "How could she think of leaving the house that way?" The second notes the disheveled party and moves on. She is capable of recognizing the lack of effort put into her clothing and hair without relating it to her own condition. The first woman may have grown up less advantaged and was often conscious of her lack of ability to wear the clothes that she would have liked. The second was more priveledged and less deeply effected by a third parties clothing choice. Similarly those who have had feelings of attraction to someone of the same gender on some level are more likely to be effected when the subject arises. This is not just conjecture. An Emory University study compared physiological responses to homoerotic stimuli amongst two groups: self proclaimed homophobes and those who claimed no prejudice. Those who declared themselves to be homophobic had a higher rate of stimulous when shown homoerotic imagery than those who were more secure in there heterosexuality. Those with internalized homophobia were the ones with internalized homosexual desire.
So what is the practical application of all of this? The ability to separate religious belief from our internalized response to homosexuality would enable us all to consider our belief in human dignity and basic human rights and provide a perspective that allows us to practice our beliefs without imposing them on others. Just as outdated dietary laws became less observed as their functionality lessened so too can our sexual fears become les predatory in our relations with others. As we take more responsibility for those things that make us internally fearful we can become less fearful of others who agitate those feelings that were already present inside us. As religion looks at the reasoning behind its ban on homosexuality and the religious take their own personal look at the issue perhaps they can find a way to make room for others to live their beliefs without feeling threatened. Perhaps they will begin to look upon homosexuality the way they do divorce or un- married sex. They may not prefer it. They may not think it "expedient." But they can allow for others to have a difference in opinion and take responsibility for their own internal struggles without attacking the reminder of that struggle.


Salon.com
Comments
My personal take on homosexuality is that a person cannot help what turns him/her on sexually…and if “same sex partners” is your thing—and you stick to consenting adults…I cannot understand anyone else being bothered by that. Homophobia makes no sense to me…unless it is some kind of defense mechanism.
All that said, the notion that religions can simply disregard the stuff they think is unimportant IS ABSURD.
Specifically, the god of the Bible says that homosexual conduct is an abomination worthy of summary capital punishment. You cannot be more direct and clear about it than the god of the Bible was. Anyone claiming to worship the god of the Bible who claims there is nothing morally wrong with homosexual conduct is nothing more than a blazing hypocrite.
Frankly, the best guess that can be made about the god of the Bible is that IT IS A FUCKING JOKE! The god of the Bible is a cartoon. Anyone is free to believe anything they want…but it is my opinion that the religions based on the Bible and the god in it…are also a joke.
As I said up above, after reading your essay, Tijo, I am still not sure of where you were going. But if you were trying to find accommodation between the religions of the Bible and homosexuality…with all the respect in the world, you are preaching hypocrisy.
After reading this I'm glad you asked the question, and even more glad that you answered it so eloquently. I'm struck in particular by the study from Emory which shows "Those who declared themselves to be homophobic had a higher rate of stimulous when shown homoerotic imagery than those who were more secure in there heterosexuality." I KNEW it. That's the kind of thing which you feel intuitively to be true but which you rarely have the satisfaction of seeing borne out scientifically. Haters of whatever stripe more often than not are motivated by things going on inside themselves more than any externalized,"rational" reasoning.
You wrote, "Specifically, the god of the Bible says that homosexual conduct is an abomination worthy of summary capital punishment. You cannot be more direct and clear about it than the god of the Bible was."
Unfortunately, there is really very little in the bible that is "direct and clear", which is precisely the problem with biblical religions; they can pick and choose from the bible whatever BS happens to fit their mood at any given moment. Which parts are literal, which are not? Who knows?
I think that your analysis makes a lot of sense and have certainly seen hundreds of ideas that are stated in the Bible either ignored or reinterpreted in the light of the current cultural situation. While many things are stated in the Bible that are outright crazy to us when we read them today we must remember that most of the Bible is both culturally and temporally conditioned.
In other words it was written for a specific people at a specific time to address a specific issue. When we read the Bible as if ever word is to be universally applicable to all people at all times in all situations we are showing mostly our ignorance of Biblical exegesis, and making a major interpretive error in the process.
Often, but not always, it is possible to denote those things that are specifically said in the Bible to apply to a specific group of people, the Israelites, for example. When we apply them to us we do so at our peril, and we are also doing a half assed exegesis at the same time.
Where the language and context are clear that the writer was stating what he believed to be a universally applicable statement then Biblical scholars still have to decide if we think it is applicable to us today, particularly in the light of other later passages in the Bible that indicate a different conclusion.
There is a lot of room for discussion and honest argument over those cases, but hardly cause for either alarm. If one does not want to engage in that process, that is fine. But that is how it works.
Good work.
Monte
Monte
the manly men who wrote the bible
may have considered (well, obviously
they did) homosexuality an abomination.
and the Emory thing. the more you hate
the more it's likely you are. Yep. Tijo
you are awesome. To me the whole
homo/hetero controversy is
overblown...did I say
overblown?
Great post. I'm reminded of the difference between anti-semitism and anti-Judaism, which are not the same thing. Maybe I'll write a post about that. But I'm with you. Great post. Be proud. And people who object to gays? Should get a life.
"An Emory University study compared physiological responses to homoerotic stimuli amongst two groups: self proclaimed homophobes and those who claimed no prejudice. Those who declared themselves to be homophobic had a higher rate of stimulous when shown homoerotic imagery than those who were more secure in there heterosexuality. Those with internalized homophobia were the ones with internalized homosexual desire."
So the fear is that what they see is what they think they might become, so this is a form of self-protection? Is that a natural extension of the "I cannot help who I am" doctrine? If I see it all around me, I will have to act on my urges, so please don't let them be open?
When I was working the student booth on my college campus, people would come by screaming and arguing with us (this was over twenty years ago), and when they left, we'd all look at each other and say, "Closet case."
This is rather akin to the idea that the noisily and haughtily religious are those who are often doing in the darkened room what they rail about in public. Their ideas about the sex-charged existence that we are thought to have actually mirrors their own fantasies more than any real-life gay people?
It is NOT all about sex, and it never has been.
The problem is with the religion…and the contortions present day worshippers of the god of the Bible have to manifest in trying to be reasonable with the barbaric proscriptions of a cartoon god.
Anyone recognizing that no god worthy of worship would have a problem with something like this…ought use that as an argument against the religion…not for reconciliation of the religion with common sense.
It is not a pretty picture I am painting…and I can understand people wanting to simply dismiss it as over-kill and over-harsh…but I ask you to consider my arguments more carefully.
Any kind of reconciliation of between people who worship the god of the Bible…and condoning homosexual behavior is nothing less than hypocrisy of major proportions. Divorce from the religion is what is in order…not the hypocrisy of reconciliation.
You said: All that said, the notion that religions can simply disregard the stuff they think is unimportant IS ABSURD.
I say: Yet they do it all the time. That is why (attn. Steve) I use the analogy of divorce. With all the Christian concern for marriage when it comes to denying the right to gays, they seem to have no problem ignoring adultery which is not just a threat to but is the death of a marriage.
You said: Specifically, the god of the Bible says that homosexual conduct is an abomination worthy of summary capital punishment.
I say: A deeper understanding of what we call the Bible is needed. The Bible is split into two parts: The old and the new covenants (testaments). The old covenant was Judaic and a contract with the Jewish people. It made provisions for sacrifice as a way to amend for sin and looked forward to a messiah. The second Covenant was a contract replacing the old one in which the Messiah was assumed to have arrived and fulfilled the requirements of the first contract once and for all with a final sacrifice worthy of atoning for all sins for all time. This is important because while the old testament foreshadowed the new the new one it was also was replaced by it and the burdensome strictures it imposed in payment for sin were paid by the death of the Messiah. It was no longer necessary to kill a bull in atonement, dietary laws changed even to the point where a few disciples were commanded to eat pork because the lord declared it to be clean. What that leaves us with is the New testament stance on homosexuality which is very few lines, the most explicit of which is in Revelations a book that is not meant to be taken literally or as advice for living such as Pauls letters to the Corinthians or Ephesians. So no it actually isn't clear it's kind of muddled and being an atheist I think I've already done more work clarifying a book I don't believe in than I generally feel a need to.
You said: Anyone claiming to worship the god of the Bible who claims there is nothing morally wrong with homosexual conduct is nothing more than a blazing hypocrite.
I say: That is my point exactly. If someones study of their faith leads them to believe that homosexuality is morally wrong and they have done due diligence in researching the subject then that is one kind of opinion about homosexuality. There is another emotional response that makes some of those same people rabid and anti gay. There is a difference in a conclusion and a response. One may conclude that homosexuality, adultery, eating pork, and not sleeping in a separate hut when you are in your menses cycle, are according to the Bible sinful and morally wrong. (I think there is too much confusion about the difference between sin and morals) but ones reaction to each of these takes different extremes based upon personal beliefs. My point is that it is possible to study ones religion and come to the conclusion that gays are committing a sin without going apeshit over the fact anymore than they do about adultery or ham sandwiches and that the ability to recognize the difference between belief and hysterical response would benefit both the gay and the Christian community.
Please do not suppose that I am speaking out of my hat here. This is a subject I have investigated thoroughly…and written about extensively over the years.
Here is a link to a thread dealing with your assertions about what is and is not applicable to today’s Christians.
http://open.salon.com/blog/frank_apisa/2008/12/22/old_testament--are_its_laws_applicable_to_christianity
I’d certainly like to discuss it with you after you read it…since it plays an important part in your arguments here.
Rick- a more concise view of my first comment to Frank. Thanks for weighing in.
RenLady- Thanks I can sometimes be a bit ranty on this subject so well reasoned is part of balancing that side.
Monte- You are a constant reminder of what Christianity could be. I am proud that despite our differences in belief we continue to not only be civil but supportive friends to each other here. I am always proud to call you friend. Your explanation is elegant and eloquent and appreciated.
Capn'- Sorry for laughing just a bit but your response was so brief I actually heard it in my mind as coming from a parrot on your shoulder. Those avatars really fuck with my mind sometimes.
Mr. Mustard: Just another testimony to the mutable nature of religious belief. One might say it's not about if you blow but who you know. If one were sometimes given to being crude. Which I am, sometimes.
Trig- overblown? Is there such a thing? That whole finding it an abomination thing reminds me of a joke I made up in response to the old tired fag joke. Q-How many straight men can you fit on a bar stool? A-Three but please don't tell my wife.
Fingerbooks- Yes and it is all about the response to the belief. When you tell them to get a life I think sometimes they think you mean mine or someone elses but not their own.
Roy- thanks for your words here. You are right. It is sometimes NOT about talking points but my National Hug a Homophobe Day hasn't gotten off the ground yet.
Leslie- I will see what I can find for you and post it here as well as PM it to you.
Sister Owl- Our experiences are so similar I am not surprised that you would get it...and reduce it to so few words while making it more understandable. Thanks. I don't tell you often enough that I appreciate having you here.
Frank again- There is little disagreement with you on most of what you say about religion. I think personally that there is enough of the angelic in man to explain all the good in the world and enough evil to explain the vile vile things we concoct for each other and that the sooner we take personal responsibility for that the better we will all be.
Yahweh- nothing personal dude.
I agree with much of what you have to say. I do think however that if one takes Christianity at it's word then one has to conclude that the First contract had to be fulfilled in order to engage the second. I think that one can find this idea clearly in the words of Jesus. This is in fact the reason that one could only go to the Father through him. That being said we are left with New Testament responses which are much less clear and from the mouth of Jesus we have nothing.
As to the old testament language what was interpreted as homosexual ( a late eighteenth early nineteenth century concept) should often have been interpreted as someone who was engaging in sex with someone of the same gender as part of their duties as a temple prostitute. I cringed earlier as I used the term lord another anachronistic term whose concept didn't develop until after the time of christ. I am likewise suspect of adjectives like abominable that are part of an older unreliable translation such as that of the King James version. That does not deny that it was not considered a positive by Yahweh and his interpreters but so were many other things that latter were deemed to be less important as their context changed. To an often Nomadic tribe the legality of birth and the importance of progeny were of the utmost importance, thus women became chattel and homosexuality became a threat to the much needed issue of heirs. While same gender sex acts were considered an abomination, if you will, we have no evidence of what about them was so abominable. The whole sodom story for instance was about towns people being inhospitable to visitors not the desire to corn hole a couple of angels. We interpret that as being anti gay when in fact it another of the many strict rules of hospitality found in Nomadic cultures where said rules are at times a matter of life or death.
The encounter with dietary laws that I am referring to takes place in Acts:
In the book of Acts, [10:10-16] Peter, an apostle of Jesus has a vision:
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
"Now Peter was a Jew. In accordance to Jewish customs and laws Peter could not eat any of the things described. Leviticus 11:41-45 states clearly:"
And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth [shall be] an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon [all] four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they [are] an abomination. Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy.
If on the other hand you look at it as an account of mankind's increasingly clear view of deity and his relationship therewith, the story is quite different. You start with people worshiping statues of multiple gods, then there is the idea of one God (but a jealous tribal god of one person, a projection of human ambition and hopes), then increasingly a spiritual God above mere human comprehension, and finally a God who is not mere a being who loves when it behooves Him, but Love itself; where outward worship and ritual is seen is less important than sincerity and spirituality. You can then easily see the difference between Jesus' view (in the kingdom of god there is neither man nor woman, Jew nor Greek), and the view of Peter (who for all his good intentions, was a product of his society): Women should not speak in church. Peter says women should stick to their home and please their husband, Jesus says that of the sisters Mary and Martha, the one who chose to learn of God chose the better part and what he says about marriage would make most "family values" proponents turn around an run.
The single largest truth about religion, be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or whatever is that for most people it is nothing more than a projection of their own personal or societal values, a formalization of them. As Shams-i Tabrizi wrote:
"The words we use to define the Creator, are as a mirror to the way we see ourselves. If at the mention of "God," the first thing to come into your mind is a being before which you must be afraid and ashamed, it means that you are for the most part within that fear and shame. But if, at the mention of "God," the first thing to come to your mind is love, mercy and tenderness, it means that those qualities are abundantly present within you."
Orange Pieper- Well at least your avatar is sunny. Come back again sometime maybe there will be something more interesting to you. Sorry you didn't get the whole idea about internalized homophobia maybe next time I'll be able to explain it better. Thanks.
Owl- great I may be the first atheist in history to actually convert people TO religion. Oh well. Now if I can convince you know who (look up) to cheer up a little I'll be a real miracle worker.
It was used by the powerful/rulers to repress and keep the 'order' intact, organized. Order here used in the generic sense. It was meant to quench reason - it aggressively preached FAITH, without questioning, Hindus said, "Bishyashey miloyey teer, Torkey bohudur". Meaning, faith hastens you towards your goal (teer=shore), questioning would delay, lengthen the journey.
So do not expect religion to ever aid what would naturally upset some world orders.
The religious however, if they really wanted could think, re-examine the issue in the light of reason, their own principles, humanity.
They could also think about this fact that religion in the end is a human construct, it was created by humans to make life easier, to engender community building, if not equitable at least charitable sharing of resources to bring about some balance : so the human race could be nurtured.
So then, why use it to destroy? We created it, so we have to rewrite, edit, change it the way they change rules at the Vatican. Simple. God hoped, wanted the well being of ALL His creatures, good and bad is why they preach the doctrine of choice in Christianity, and the idea of "forgive sinners" etc. So we don't have to lose any one from amongst us, for each has a mother somewhere, a lover, a child that would be bereaved, isn't it?
Extremely sorry Tijo about the long comment but this is something I so strongly feel about, hate it when mere mortals presume they can use the Divine to further their narrowminded clannish goals, and try to make it look like we all want it.
If you remember History, they had crucified Jesus. Poisoned Socrates etc etc etc. They=the ones that were ruing, considered to be know-it-alls of their times. Jesus was doing something outrageous, audacious when he asked Mray Magdalene be forgiven, given her rightful place in God's world.
Knowing and understanding History is a must for these very reasons, that we do not forget who we were, to fully appreciate what we are now, so we should never retro to, even by mistake.
Victory to human rights, Tijo, some fine morning. Is homosexuality as harmful as smoking?
"People in glass houses should not throw stones." What gives anyone the right to judge another person, when what he does might be just as bad or worse. Just my personal opinion..
Great post!!