Token

Token
Birthday
December 31
Title
Rex Der Hause
Company
Ministry of Truth
Bio
and you will stop. don't MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!! let it grow This the faith my Father taught me - and my Father in LAW taght my mate. So let it be written. So let it be done.... otherwise..... Hurry along you don't want to be LATE Butt.. Buttt.. I"M not going anywhere.... and NEITHER are YOU oh....sillyme, NO , not late in the sense of your silly temporal sytem which doesn't even allow me to show my true age.. Late as in the LATE MR DENT I men LATE in it's TRUE sence, you know DEAD..... Bit of THREAT actually come to think of it..... silly things to use to try to control a warrior priest, so I forget sometimes that it actually works on some Humans

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Salon.com
FEBRUARY 10, 2012 1:25PM

Individual Absolute Sovereignty

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http://open.salon.com/blog/philbert_desanex/2012/03/11/rat_hocky_catalog

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i hAvE inSeRtED tHe mYTh oF fREE wILL iNtO uR bRaIn uSiNG tHe neWEst teCHnOLogIEs hEaR aT tHe CIA
Jonnie

THANK GOD! I am so glad to learn that my delusions of free will are simply the result of your application of CIA technologies! I was so afraid that I was going to have to learn to think for myself!

Thank you for relieving my mind.
I'm commenting on a few friends' blogs even though I shouldn't be here because I have stuff to finish.

As a liberal, though I certainly don't represent all liberals, I feel a little misrepresented here. You seem to think I'm married to government solutions. I'm not; I'm married to solutions. I don't care where they come from as long as they're reliable. I turn to the public sector for solutions because the private sector fails miserably in too many communities and I'm not willing to allow those who are in trouble to be ignored because too many people aren't voluntarily doing what you are.

I'd love to have your faith in human nature but sometimes it doesn't work that way and I don't think the poor can afford for it not to. Of course legalistic BS is legalistic BS but it exists largely because so many have expended so much energy finding loopholes.

In general, I'd rather be able to leave the private sector alone, but that doesn't work because there are too many incentives for abuse. From a competitive standpoint, we run into the lowest common denominator problem: the least ethical competitor determines the rules of the game by forcing competitors to either follow suit or be uncompetitive. I would dearly love an effective private sector mechanism to deal with this but I haven't seen one.

Again, I'm married to the existence of solutions, not to the nature of solutions. I care if it works. My choice is based not on ideology but on practicality.

Yes, I agree with your spiritual reality, though it unfortunately doesn't jibe with the blatant Social Darwinism of some of your antigovernment allies. I could see addressing that through religion but I'm not sure how to approach that other than through some sort of evangelism, and I belong to a decidedly nonevangelistic tradition.

Our goal is the same. Now it's time to figure out solutions.
Like Koshersalaami, Token, it seems to me that we all recognize there are problems with which humans must deal.

We differ on the nature of these problems a bit; we differ a bit more about what caused the problems; and we differ significantly about how best to solve the problems without “unintended consequences” creating new and potentially worse problems.

But we all see that there are problems…and we all want those problems to be dealt with (and overcome) if possible.

You are of the opinion that “individual Absolute Sovereignty is correct.”

I, on the other hand, am of the opinion that (attempts to obtain) individual absolute sovereignty is at the heart of many of our problems; at the heart of what causes many of our problems; and a significant factor in why we cannot solve our problems.

I suspect, however, that we are more in agreement than those differences might indicate.

Got a doctors appointment in a half hour…and nine holes of golf afterwards. I’ll be back to discuss this a bit more after all that.
Kosher and Frank

I think we all three get the "music"- it's the lyrics that need a bit of work. - that's what Beer is for. I was raised to think I can do anything- power comes from the individual. Power to help, power to hurt.

morality comes from the individual

The current dustup over whether the state can impose "laws" over conscience is kind of a reversal over the usual "conscience over law" of such traditional Liberal stands as Right to choose ( an abortion/birth control)
Right to sexuality of your choice/disposition
Right to conscientiously object to being ordered to kill your fellow beings in a war and not be forced to do so
Moral objection to the death penalty.
Right to use drugs recreationaly without becoming a criminal.
etc etc. -

These are all issues that I from time to time take heat about from "Republicans" who claim to support "Free Will" and Individual Sovereignty, but only when they approve.

I feel that most things about how you choose to run your life are between you and whatever spiritual self image you hold, and are any of the governments business.

more to the point, for me, is that a peaceful society is such a fragile thing that it seems ludicrous that any government might think that it can carry on without the consent of the governed. Order is too easily destroyed if too many individuals are pissed off.

But then, I was raised by a mainly Swiss philosophy of individuality and minding ones own business, that we've known for centuries. Look how little fuss the Swiss make about taking care of each other. And minding their own business.
Wow…I was writing a comment in Word to be posted here, but when I went to post, you had posted, Token. Here is what I had written:

Golf sucked…it was way too windy and cold. But I did get a birdie…so I am happy. The doctor said my ear was aces…so I do not have to see him again for six months.

Since no one has reacted to anything I said earlier…and since I promised I was going to honor your desire “to be left alone”…I will not continue commenting unless there is a response. I really was just here paying regards to your new thread. Good luck with it.


But now that you have responded (very nicely, by the way)…I have more to say.


more to the point, for me, is that a peaceful society is such a fragile thing…

Well I certainly agree that a peaceful society is a fragile thing. By far, a peaceful society is the exception rather than the rule…and by a considerable margin. I am beginning to think that it is as impossible for humans to live “peacefully” as it is for apes, chimps, gibbons, or any of the many other quarrelsome creatures that inhabit the planet. We may be a bit smarter, but we sure as hell are not any less irritable or grouchy.

… that it seems ludicrous that any government might think that it can carry on without the consent of the governed.

Here is where we part company…but just a bit, and not the way you might think.

I agree that the government must derive is right to govern from the consent of the governed--but the devil is in the details.
Unfortunately, “the governed” is us, We the People…and we are a diverse, picky, and finicky lot. On damn near every issue of real importance, a huge number of us polarize on opposite extremes of the question.

Take “abortion” or “a woman’s right to choose.” There is a significant segment of the population that considers abortion to be nothing less than murder…a thing that should be criminalized with sanctions being strictly and harshly enforced. And then there is a significant segment of the population that considers “a woman’s right to choose” to be inviolate…that no law that subverts that right can justifiably be enacted.

Even thought there can be a sizeable segment in the middle…how on earth can any government derive “consent from the governed” as justification for what government should eventually do?

It cannot happen. Someone...and a whole bunch of someone's...is going to be sore as hell.

That is part of the problem.

Not really sure how to make things right in those situations, but my point is that requiring the government (requiring elected officials) to do what the electorate wants is a tricky bit of business. Much, much easier to suggest than to implement.

Lemme ask anyone tuned in here: How do we resolve that?
Frank

It is a complicated question- but self governance is always preferable to exterior application of coercion. Not the least problem in the exterior application of coercion is that there are quite a few people like me who were raised on the (Swiss) philosophy that once you say you're going to MAKE me do something, you've made a threat, and the discussion is no longer about whatever action we were discussing, it's now about what I do about you having threatened me. (Oh yeah, make me- - you may have noticed that I'm doing that with PJ) I seem to recall having similar set to's with you- but---

I think the problem we have most often is that everyone gets so wound up in demonstrating
what powerful forces of coercion and persuasion they exert, that most often they forget to ask, ok, what's really at stake here?

I absolutely am a creature of Free Will. I've written post's citing my philosophy of “What Would Bugs Bunny Do?” And the answer is whatever it takes to confuse, outrage, and totally discombobulate whoever tries to FORCE him to do anything (NOT DO is something else- bugs doesn't intentionally do things to offend or harm other people- that's just the way he is )

But, as a creature of Free Will, I recognize other people's Free Will is just as important as mine. I have no right to dictate to them, so long as they don't harm me. So what is Harm? Well, that's why we have Tort law- Civil Law.

Criminal Law is reserved for those things that are Fell- as in deadly, as in Felony. Murdering Children is probably one of those things.

I personally believe that abortion is the taking of a human life. I also believe it is none of the government's business. Whether it is “murder” or not is a matter between the one bearing the child and (Her God?, The child? )- I know it damn sure isn't the government or her holier than thou neighbors. It sure isn't any of mine. I'll wrestle out whether abortion is murder next time I'm pregnant. On some few times I've been consulted, it seemed like “self-defense”.

Conscientious objectors? Not usually a problem to get “religious people” to give that one up.

Drugs? Again, most people I know see the police as more of a problem than any good they do to wage the “war On Drugs”.

So why in hell are we so eager to criminalize everything?

Most T-partiers are not. Most “liberals” are not.

Mostly we find ourselves dancing to the tune of Big Government, which anymore IS synonymous with Big Corporate. they like to keep everyone stirred upp and fearful of each other so that we don't stop them from stealing our money and power.

Politics at a National Level has as much to do with true human feelings and welfare as reality TV has to do with Reality.

Like this one, most “national “emergencies boil down to a swindle.No one needs for the catholic Church to go against it's conscience and provide Birth Control, much less abortion. Both are readily and cheaply available.
The only reason for the Power Play is to grab power.

We like to keep our power and money as close to home as possible, thanks

We take care of our own because we care for our community, not because there are laws which “force us”

If you haven't, read my next blog post.

As I said, I don't think we differ in principle, no one is EVIL
We just have different ways and expectations-
we work best when not forced.