Token

Token
Birthday
December 31
Title
Rex Der Hause
Company
Ministry of Truth
Bio
and you will stop. don't MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!! let it grow This the faith my Father taught me - and my Father in LAW taght my mate. So let it be written. So let it be done.... otherwise..... Hurry along you don't want to be LATE Butt.. Buttt.. I"M not going anywhere.... and NEITHER are YOU oh....sillyme, NO , not late in the sense of your silly temporal sytem which doesn't even allow me to show my true age.. Late as in the LATE MR DENT I men LATE in it's TRUE sence, you know DEAD..... Bit of THREAT actually come to think of it..... silly things to use to try to control a warrior priest, so I forget sometimes that it actually works on some Humans

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Salon.com
FEBRUARY 7, 2013 5:39PM

None Dare Call It Treason

Rate: 7 Flag

Let's cut to the chase- Are we as a nation so constituted that one man or a group of men of the same political grouping, may in any case condemn to death and execute a citizen of our nation, a member of our nation entitled to all rights and protections of our nation, SECRETLY, with out any further due process or oversight by the public? ( NB_ NOT "The People", for some Lawyer will claim equivalency of "The Peoples Representatives"-

The Public. 

NEVER. Under any circumstance.

I do, of course have objections to such executions on many level, the killing of children as "Collateral Damage" not the least. But if you argue at such detail, you wind up in a "What color is the sky?" argument where if you say blue, the questioner will point out that it is night and if you say "Black" he will point out the depressive nature of the answer.

The Emily Littela. Strategy

Purposeful misunderstanding.

The only real answer necessary to me is that it is never one man or one groups decision- that by making such an arbitrary decision in secret, even to save your country , you have dishonored yourself and proved yourself unfit for such power.

Of course, you may easily regain your honor and prove your sincerity by committing Seppuku-

I'm rather an Orientalist at heart.

 

Addendum:

It's too bad the inauguration is over, I 've just written a great speech for Our President:

As president I swear that I will kill a whole bunch of people in secret and hope that you won't find out about it and when you do find out about it I'll continue to kill under the explanation that my lawyers told me it isn't illegal and you can't make me stop.

I'm doing this in secret and for your protection because I want to be transparent and give you the truth.

The truth is, You can't handle the truth.

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O.K. ... let's try another approach.

Do you ever think it's the case that something is so secret or so overwhelming that the general populace shouldn't have access to it?

Perhaps a new technology that can intercept terrorist messages or the ability to implant a targeting marker into a person without detection? Or a true mind-reader. Or something beyond the comprehension of my our brains?

If these types of technologies exist, must they be communicated to us peons in the general population because where secrecy is lost? Is there ever a situation, involving national security, where details necessarily must be kept behind closed doors?
The person on trial must be afforded PUBLIC trial. Period.
A citizen may not be found guilty, far less condemned to death without PUBLIC trial. Period.
Don't do an Emily.
Killing American Citizen By Government- sole issue.
I've never called Frank and KS "Emily" before. Guess I'll have to start.

BTW, I have NO problem calling it treason. The only other thing it could be is out and out war crimes.
Amy

I'm waiting for someone to show up and refer to the Racist nature of my implying Black Night may connote "depressive"
I've commented on your post on OurSalon. Where do you want the main discussion to take place, or do you want them independent? I've started there, and I'll assume I'll stay over there.

By the way, turn about is fair play. We're not the only ones with a new nickname, though you might actually appreciate this one. This one developed in two stages from two different people. The core of it is an abbreviation: OIE, standing for Obama Is Evil. Those supporting that contention are now OIEsters.
Kosher-

Independent

Oie vey
KS, that is the same post where you agreed to call me a "swine". Forgive me for not giving a rat's ass about your cutesy, little personal slurs.
Amy and Kosher

It isn't war- the only possible justification for these killings is execution for treason-

and that is not within the purvue of the president.

Certainly not without PUBLIC naming of the Defendant ant the right to be heard in his own defense at PUBLIC trial.

To kill for any other reason, unless IMMINENT threat, is assassination.

Assassination has always been the province of Spies , not Military.

SPIES have always been subject to summary execution. Hence,

Obama has rendered himself justifiable liable to summary execution.

More to the point :

This is the way of the Warrior, in a community of Warriors

You can kill anyone you wish

anyone you CAN

You will be tried for the murder by your community

You may submit your justification, say, that you did it because the person killed was an imminent danger to the community.

Your claim will be evaluated by the community. you will be freed or you will be punished,

Each and every killing.

You may forgo this dishonor by Seppuku - honorable suicide

It proves your motive was pure.

Or he may submit himself for trial

I'm quite willing to concede Obama may have justification for his killing of ANYONE without public trial

He simply needs to submit to public trial of the community and prove his actions justified

A trial by press is not the same

He must be Impeached.

An impeachment is for any High Crime or Misdemeanor , as the House will charge

proof is as the Senate deems fit

It is not a defense to say, " my lawyers told me it wasn't a crime"

There is not any excuse for not seeking permission

Rather than requiring himself "to be stopped."

The rules of of our government are clear

As are the ways of Honorable persons.
Gary

Your point is?
Don Rich has (sane) post up, http://open.salon.com/blog/don_rich/2013/02/07/hard_cases_bad_law_killing_americans_overseas
and Paul O'Rourke provides the part of the 5th that you want to disappear. It's at the end of his comment and completely refutes your premise. If you are interested in why you are wrong, head over there. Or maybe he'll stop by and address it here.
Don Rich has (sane) post up, http://open.salon.com/blog/don_rich/2013/02/07/hard_cases_bad_law_killing_americans_overseas
and Paul O'Rourke provides the part of the 5th that you want to disappear. It's at the end of his comment and completely refutes your premise. If you are interested in why you are wrong, head over there. Or maybe he'll stop by and address it here.
Addendum:

It's too bad the inauguration is over, I just written a great speech for Our President:

As president I swear that I will kill a whole bunch of people in secret and hope that you won't find out about it and when you do find out about it I'll continue to kill under the explanation that my lawyers told me it isn't illegal and you can't make stop.

I'm doing this in secret and for your protection because I want to be transparent and give you the truth.

The truth is, You can't handle the truth.
OIE (T?)

PJ is a master Emily- the LOKI of Emilys, The Coyote of Emilys. I can't imagine his thoughts making any sense whatsoever to an honorable person.
Addendum:

It's too bad the inauguration is over, I've just written a great speech for Our President:

As president I swear that I will kill a whole bunch of people in secret and hope that you won't find out about it and when you do find out about it I'll continue to kill under the explanation that my lawyers told me it isn't illegal and you can't make me stop.

I'm doing this in secret and for your protection because I want to be transparent and give you the truth.

The truth is, You can't handle the truth.
The premise of your post:

Let's cut to the chase- Are we as a nation so constituted that one man or a group of men of the same political grouping, may in any case condemn to death and execute a citizen of our nation, a member of our nation entitled to all rights and protections of our nation, SECRETLY, with out any further due process or oversight by the public? ( NB_ NOT "The People", for some Lawyer will claim equivalency of "The Peoples Representatives"-
The Public.
NEVER. Under any circumstance.

Paul supplied the facts that demonstrate that your "opinion" which is what this is - an opinion piece - is false under the law. Just thought you might want to check it out. It's that old line, "You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts." And emotional facts don't count.
Oit

See the problem is, the POTUS doesn't believe he is constrained by any law- hence the revision to the state of nature-

Every see where Indiana Jones has this dood coming at him waving a sword and Indie shrugs and pulls out his gun and shoots him?

I picture PJ or Obama waving a law book -

Welcome to the world of TF2- the state in which what the president is doing is Lawful, let alone Honorable.
? Oit

Emotional FACTS (?) there are no such things. Emotional Feelings are what will get you killed by someone, or not-

I beg to differ. Feelings are how Justice is perceived. If you don't get that, you better find a protector if you ever try to enforce your version of facts, you clearly don't understand what you are dealing with
An analysis of PJ's reasoning, since you present it.

PJ

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, ***except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger***;"

Seems crystal clear to me. Where's your declaration of war or "imminent" public danger when they "zap" a non-citizen in a wedding party? or aren't non-citizens considered "persons"? Or is their a different judicial system for "Non Citizens", Or is it not the duty of our nation to respect the boundaries of other nations with whom we are not at war by not attempting to enforce our law on their territory? Rendition? Seems to me the Saudis have "Right" by those standards to start enforcing Sharia by drone any time now.

People need to be DAMN careful what cans of worms they open. Idiots and Presidents more so.
The objection is not to the "Execution for Treason", but to the arrogation of power to a single person, the president, who is never to have such with the possible exception of the gravest of imminent national emergency. The constitution has been turned inside out. It was not written that The executive may do as he wishes until someone stops him by impeachment.

It is that the executive MAY only do that which he is empowered by legal and judicial action TO do, and in the event of ANY disagreement or imminent need to act, will defer the question to the representatives of the people- Anything else is the Imperial presidency claiming "Letat c'est moi"
Herr, I'm glad you went over to Don's place to play. It's a good thing in the checks and balance regard. As for me, if you want to write a post calling for Congressional oversight of the drone program, I would get behind that. It's the Obama fixation - I mean, do you honestly believe that if he were impeached, or if Romney had won, the drones would go away? I certainly don't think so.
OIT

Robamney isn't the point. The point is that electing the lesser of two evils doesn't make it "Good"- With proper oversight and public vetting of "targets" plus very strict limitation of the killing of innocents it might become something that could be given to the CIA in connection with the military

- oh wait, that's what we had for YEARS- those guys are called Spies, they don't chose their targets and hence aren't going to start targeting people who just make them look bad- course they are subject to summary execution on the battlefield, but them's the breaks-

James Bond- not part of the legal system, has gone on for years- A presidential prerogative? NO Way In Hell.

A knife in the back in a Bazaar-? Things happen.
A Hellfire missle into a wedding party? NO, Not EVER.
Amy,

"The post where I agreed to call you Swine."

At first I objected, and then Bill said the following:

'Safe_Bet's Amy, after reading that I left the LAPD and returned home because my Mom was ailing called it, "running home to Mommy." '

Is that accurate or not?
OIT

Robamney isn't the point. The point is that electing the lesser of two evils doesn't make it "Good"- With proper oversight and public vetting of "targets" plus very strict limitation of the killing of innocents it might become something that could be given to the CIA in connection with the military

- oh wait, that's what we had for YEARS- those guys are called Spies, they don't chose their targets and hence aren't going to start targeting people who just make them look bad- course they are subject to summary execution on the battlefield, but them's the breaks-

James Bond- not part of the legal system, has gone on for years-
A presidential prerogative? NO Way In Hell.

A knife in the back in a Bazaar-? Things happen.
A Hellfire missle into a wedding party to kill one "bad guy" in a party of ( an average) 30 innocents? )? NO, Not EVER.
[r] well said! best, libby
Kosh, Kosh, Kosh

You're a good sport, trying to engage with SBA. Even after you accurately predicted her hot buttons and her auto-reactions to them in another comment thread.

SBA is childlike and predictable. Offer up a reasonable counter-point to her comment and she ...
1) Ignores it
2) Attempts to divert the conversation to the latest slight she's been handed (playing the victim card, so to speak)

Like now, she's wanting to zero-in on the single instance when you might have had an emotional reaction to her inappropriate comment. But she's the worse when it comes to name-calling (most of the times, unsubstantiated) and then she won't take responsibility for it (as you'll soon see with her silence to your last question/comment).

Again, SBA is childlike and predictable, Kosh. Don't waste your time -- your points and counterpoint comments are best directed at others.
Let's cut to the chase- Are we as a nation so constituted that one man or a group of men of the same political grouping, may in any case condemn to death and execute a citizen of our nation, a member of our nation entitled to all rights and protections of our nation, SECRETLY, with out any further due process or oversight by the public? ( NB_ NOT "The People", for some Lawyer will claim equivalency of "The Peoples Representatives"-
The Public.


Okay...let's"cut to the chase."

There are going to be times when the playing field has got to be leveled.

I hate that it is happening, but I see the reasons for it. I hope it does not get abused, but I acknowledge that it may.

In any case, if a person were running for president who swore never to take extraordinary means to achieve needed results, I would do everything in my power to help defeat that person.

Tough world we live in, Rude. Easy for people like you to assail others for making decisions you don't have to make. Easy for you to be so high and mighty and dedicated to high principle.

Anyway, it is fun to look in on these "the sky is falling" screeds and see how the continually disgruntled faction of OS is doing.

Quite well, it seems! I'm sure you all feel good knowing you are all such sterling characters who never deviate from goodness and mercy.
tho i agree in general with ur premise.....i can imagine many scenarios where it becomes necessary.....
'drone'strikes arent new....just used to be carried out by seal teams and Marine snipers,along with mistaken targets and collateral damage....
as tech improves,and more target opps are presented,more mistaken strikes and damage will occur....
attempting to do the 'right thing' protecting 330 mill people boggles the mind.....
interesting discussion..
Wow. That is the shortest comment for Libby on record.
Dare... and double dare...

Honor, now there's a foreign concept for you.
Yeah, Joisey, I know,

You're not the first person to tell me this, nor will you be the last, and one of these days I'll actually listen.

I will write however many times:

Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waste of time.
Answering is a waster of time.

See, the thing is, it's too easy to cheat. You type the line once, copy it, post it, copy the whole stack, post that, double in size every copy and post.
Oh damn, I spelled it waster, so now I've duplicated my spelling error. Serves me right.
Well, KS, seeing as how both you and Joisey have your noses up each others asses and have respectively wasted a couple hundred of words insulting me, here is the ENTIRE comment that both you and Bill Beck referenced (out of context):

"This is slightly OT, but I think it is a perfect example of the kind of BS that the apoplectic apologist assholes make to excuse their own cowardice and the cowardice of their Obama idol.

Bill Beck, one of the premier apoplectic apologist assholes (AAA for short) wrote this on KosherSalaami's post yesterday. Not only did nobody else call him on his belief that murdering children is a fucking "success", but they agreed with him.

"Kids have always died in war. What is happening now is only different in that significantly fewer of them are dying. War is horrible for that and millions of other reasons. I dont see that list of kids as a failure. I see it as a success, considering so many more would have died in more conventional wars. The only thing that changes that is if it is argued that this war is fought where none other would have been because of how easy it is. That is not the argument. Therefore...the only difference is that fewer kids are killed.

Bill Beck
JANUARY 31, 2013 07:23 PM

What kind of an animal would consider the MURDER of a 3 y.o. CHILD to be a success? In what warped, demented universe can this be found to be acceptable? How can people let words like this not only pass, but congratulate him for them?

They apologize, excuse and even dare applaud the Obama administrations murder of innocent children and then DARE to say shit like "President Obama is as gentle as a kindergarten teacher".

They are all liars, assholes and apologists for murder and war crimes. Bill Beck and his "fan boys" seriously disgust me! It is just too bad that they can't experience the horrors that they so gleefully applaud being inflicted on others.


BTW, I know BB or one of his sychophants is going to a.) start crowing how he was a Marine (ever serve in combat, dude? Or did you just sit your fat ass behind a desk pushing papers?) and was a cop (until he had to run home to mommie) or b.) give me shit about using an alt screen name (gee, after BB threatened you yesterday and said that he hopes the FBI gets you, I wonder why!)"



If you find that grounds for calling somebody a "swine", based upon your "buddy" recommendation, that's fine. Just don't expect me to give a shit about your opinion.

As for Joisey... you two enjoy each other. Y'all make a nice couple.
SBA writes about Bill ...

"premier apoplectic apologist asshole"
"... an animal ..."
"are all liars, assholes and apologists"
"did you just sit your fat ass ... "
"was a cop (until he had to run home to mommie)"

yeah, seems like legit grounds for callin' you a swine.
A fascinating statistic to ponder is immediately following Agrarian culture's beginnings the life expectancy of the first farmers was far less than even a danger riddled Hunter's life. Of course the reason was the first raids, which led to the first wars, always all about resources, human or material.

And kids have been killed the entire time. And every single baby dead multiplied into generations of revenge driven conflict, and more dead babies and grandmothers, ad nauseum.

Is it true any president, specifically one who has to fight for legitimacy at every turn, should/would ignore or dismiss what his military and intelligence officers tell him is the way to fight this war?

Our Grand Area planning got us here, what's going to get us out.

Treason? Incompetence? Both?
Amy

Take a break, shake it off, Don't take it so seriously. Get back in the game. I like your grit- don't let em get to you.
Amy,
OK, now I read what you said in context. Also, I read what you criticized in context. What Bill said was that this list would indicate that fewer kids are getting killed in this military action than in other ones, probably including both Iraq and the earlier days of Afghanistan, and that the reduction of the number of young casualties is a good thing.

I don't get this from his post, I get it from your quoting him here.

All right, I'll quote you quoting him, In Context:

"Kids have always died in war. What is happening now is only different in that significantly fewer of them are dying. War is horrible for that and millions of other reasons. I dont see that list of kids as a failure. I see it as a success, considering so many more would have died in more conventional wars."

As you said, context.

My God, can't you even be bothered to actually read what you QUOTE?

Unlike Joisey, I don't care how many names you feel like calling me or how many unflattering adjectives you send in my direction. I take them with a grain of salt anyway.

How is it that you managed to pick that sentence out of the middle of a paragraph without noticing the rest of the paragraph? I feel like I'm talking to a particularly sophisticated bot with a search engine instead of to a human being, because this isn't the first, second, or third time I've noticed the same phenomenon.

Look, if this is a neurological issue or a processing issue or some variation of dyslexia or something, I apologize, but if that's the case, please tell us so I can get off your case for something that isn't your fault. I wouldn't intentionally attack you over a disability. Also, if that's the case and you know about it, have enough sense not to scream until you're sure you got it right.
Kosher

I'm wondering if Amy took off- hope not, she does add a certain spice to things-

She posted a farewell blog earlier this evening-
Hence my message her, and I mean This is a rough place to play sometimes, but generally worth the effort.
Amy has lost it before and deleted a whole lot of stuff, then come back.

Sure it's a rough place to play sometimes, but there's an extent to which it's as rough as you make it. If you don't want this place to be rough, don't start fights. There are ways of talking to people other than by defaulting to moral outrage.

Let's face it: For the most part, you and I are farther apart politically than Amy and I are. Do we get impatient with each other? All the time. Does that extend to animosity? Not really. I'll yell at you one minute for making what I consider to be an invalid political point and ask about your health the next. There's important and then there's unimportant. There are ways of handling disagreements, there are ways of compartmentalizing disagreements. There are consequences to treating those skills like they're unimportant or, worse, invalid.
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