marriage--whats the point? musings & many links on polyamory

the matrix

you can take the red pill, or the blue pill

vzn

Location: denver,

Bio: software engr born 1970. coding from young age. "digital brain" but with lots of feelings too. writing here mainly to publicize a few key issues, let off some steam, & for the feedback. plz write me comments, very much appreciated!! even on old posts!! helps me gauge reader interest/ reaction & steer direction of new posts.

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Vzn's Links

cloud computing: A trip in to the secret, online "cloud"; And Before You Know It... Clouds Are Status Quo
Egovt: Defense: Open source software is more secure than commercial code; Maryland Voters Test New Cryptographic Voting System; E-voting system lets voters verify their ballots are counted -- Takoma Park, Md. voters are the first in U.S. to try new technology; Is administration more interested in transparency of Congress?; FAA Gets Its New Virtualized Flight Plan System Off the Ground; Texting Toward Utopia -- Does the Internet spread democracy?; With IT Dashboard, federal CIO Vivek Kundra may have set an extraordinary precedent compelling IT managers to improve visibility
NSA, cybersecurity, cyberwarfare: Terror Goes Online -- But so far, the real world is safe from cyberattack; Cyberwar Readiness Recast As Low Priority -- Preparedness for cyberwar should have a place in U.S. defense planning, but resources are better spent on bolstering potentially vulnerable infrastructure, according to think tank RAND.; Exclusive: U.S. Spies Buy Stake in Firm That Monitors Blogs, Tweets; Report: Cyberterror Not a Credible Threat; Feds Plan Cyber Data Center; Civil Libertarians Shudder; Paranoia Watch: Ultrasecret NSA Has Conspicuous Role in New Federal Cybersecurity Center; NSA over-surveillance of Americans was illegal; NSA Supercenters to Store Americans' Private Data Permanently; Think tank: Cyberthreat overrated; Who's in Big Brother's Database? By James Bamford; White House ‘Cyber Czar’ Resigns; Let’s Not Replace Her.; CDT Wants US Gov't to Detail Computer Monitoring Program; Cyberwar -- Halted ’03 Iraq Plan Illustrates U.S. Fear of Cyberwar Risk; The NSA wiretapping story that nobody wanted -- AT&T whistleblower Mark Klein tells how he exposed a warrantless wiretapping program in his new book; NSA's cyber overkill -- A project to safeguard governmental computers, run by the NSA, is too big a threat to Americans' privacy.; Report: NSA surveillance program too secret for its own good - Ars Technica; Bush’s Secret NSA Spying May Have Tainted Prosecutions, Report Warns; ‘Einstein’ replaces ‘Big Brother’ in Internet surveillance By Wayne Madsen; NSA Security running amok to plug leaks about 9/11 By Wayne Madsen; NSA's power- and money-sucking datacenter buildout continues; Cyber-Scare -- The exaggerated fears over digital warfare; NSA’s cyber-security grab is a major expansion of web surveillance; The Turf War Over Cyberwar; ‘Stellar Wind’ routinely eavesdropped on journalists and public officials; E-Mail Surveillance Renews Concerns in Congress; NSA Dominance of Cybersecurity Would Lead to ‘Grave Peril’, Ex-Cyber Chief Tells Congress; Top cybersecurity official quits, says NSA has too much power; The panopticon economy -- The NSA’s new data-mining facility is one component of a growing local surveillance industry
warbotics: US drone strikes may break international law: UN; The Predator War -- What are the risks of the C.I.A.’s covert drone program?; Clinton faces Pakistani ire over drone attacks -- Strikes aimed at militants amount to ‘executions without trial,’ she is told; Obama Steps Up Drone Bombings Despite Civilian Deaths; Revenge of the Drones -- An Analysis of Drone Strikes in Pakistan; We've Seen the Future, and It's Unmanned; 8 real-life robots that could kill us all -- Real-life robots that can eat flesh, run through your veins and blow up missiles; Top judge: 'use of drones intolerable'; Unmanned Military Drone Briefly Grasps Senselessness Of War; U.S. Air Force Foretells Drone That Can Make Attack Decisions on Its Own; Call for debate on killer robots; Upcoming Military Robot Could Feed on Dead Bodies; Drones Hardly Ever Kill Bad Guys; Unmanned Drones Could Be Banned, Says Senior Judge; Pakistan PM urges Obama aide to halt drone strikes; In a First, U.S. Provides Pakistan With Drone Data; In Pictures: 10 Cool And Scary Robots Of War; Robots That Kill For America; Military Robots Find Place on Battlefield; Dawn of the Robot Wars By Eric Stoner; 12 of the Deadliest Unmanned Killing Machines in Our Arsenal; Inside the Pentagon's New Plan for Drones That Don't Piss Off Pakistan; CIA Secrecy on Drone Attacks Data Hides Abuses; Drones Join the War Against Drugs; The Drone War by Peter Bergen and Katherine Tiedemann; Drones: America's new Air Force; Wired For War or How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Let Dystopian SF Movies Inspire our Military Bots; P.W. Singer: Military robots and the future of war [16m youtube video]; Robot Planes, Life-and-Death Choices Over Gaza; Will 2009 become the year of the kill-bot? iRobot sees growth ahead, especially in military robotics; Inside the Rise of the Warbots; When Robots Attack: A Look At 21st Century Warriors; Military’s killer robots must learn warrior code; Army Robots: Will Humans Still Be in Control?; Q&A: The Robot Wars Have Arrived; President Obama 'orders Pakistan drone attacks'; Call Off Drone War, Influential U.S. Adviser Says
9/11 truth: The Mysterious Collapse of WTC Seven -- Why NIST’s Final 9/11 Report is Unscientific and False, by David Ray Griffin; Representative Of Largest 9/11 Families Group Says Government Complicit In Attack; New Book by David Ray Griffin – The Mysterious Collapse of World Trade Center 7 [and links to all other books by Griffin]; Turning 9/11 Realities Upside Down: When the "Big Lie" becomes the "Truth" The Unspoken Truth: The Global Research Reader on 9/11 by Global Research; Republic Magazine 16 -- 911 Uncovering the Truth [32p]; 9/11 Mind Swell -- Scientific evidence refutes the official story; The New York City Coalition for Accountability 9/11 Investigation Ballot Initiative Filed; Media Smearing of Truth Movement Reaching a Crescendo; 9/11 Truth movement; World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories; David Ray Griffin; Jim Hoffman; Steven E. Jones
warmachine: High Costs Weigh on Troop Debate for Afghan War -- $1M/soldier/year; As Gen. McChrystal and Ambassador Eikenberry duke it out over troop headcount, Derek Thompson asks why no one ever talks about the soaring cost of the Afghan war.; Pentagon Pouring Your Money In to Afghanistan: Are They Preparing for a Very Long War?; Our terrorists -- Islamic fundamentalist militants are the enemies of Israel and Western governments, right? Think again. Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed reports.; Pentagon used psychological operation on US public, documents show; Jon Krakauer: McChrystal's Explanation For Pat Tillman Cover-up Is "Preposterous"; Generals Can't Be Trusted; Troops In Afghanistan Already Outnumber Taliban 12-1; Why President Obama Can't Let Himself Be Blackmailed by His Generals; Is America Hooked on War? by Tom Englehardt; Americans: Serfs Ruled by Oligarchs; War on Terror: Foreign Policy -- Could it be that our foreign policy decisions are determined by the most powerful corporations on the planet? [www.yournetwork.tv, 7min]; Coming to terms with a global war on terror is nearly impossible given the incalculable human and financial costs. [www.yournetwork.tv, 7min]; Three Good Reasons To Liquidate Our Empire and 10 Ways to Do It; America's Wars: How Serial War Became the American Way of Life; Predictive Programming 2.0: Operation Blackjack; Osama Bin Laden: Dead Or Alive? The Eight-Year-Long Psychological Operation. Review of a new book by David Ray Griffin; When Will Obama Give Up the Bin Laden Ghost Hunt?; The spies who pushed for war; How the spooks took over the news; Bush told Houston Journalist: If Elected, “I’m Going to Invade Iraq”; THE Iraq war is a central cause of the sub-prime banking crisis threatening the world economy, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.; The Disease of Permanent War -- The embrace by any society of permanent war is a parasite that devours the heart and soul of a nation. by Chris Hedges; The military industrial porn complex -- Popular science magazines used to be aimed at the geeky wannabe inventor. Today, it's all about the glamour of war.; How the US sent $12bn in cash to Iraq. And watched it vanish; Blackjack Part 3: Telegraph Continues Propaganda Piece, Depicts Concentration Camps, Martial Law; Billions over Baghdad; Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon’s Hidden Hand; The Man Who Sold the War -- Meet John Rendon, Bush's general in the propaganda war; The Great Iraq Swindle -- How Bush Allowed an Army of For-Profit Contractors to Invade the U.S. Treasury
economic warfare: U.S. Income Inequality Is Frightening--And Much Worse Than We Thought; Analysis: Fed Under Fire As Public Anger Mounts; As Wall Street Posts Record Profits and US Hunger Rate Grows, Robert Scheer Asks: “Where Is the Community Organizer We Elected?”; 6 Congress Members Demand Fed Audit in Response to AIG Payments to Bankers; Economists Opposing Fed Audit Have Undisclosed Fed Ties; Geithner Asked To Resign; 'Mr. Secretary, The Public Has Lost All Confidence In Your Ability To Do Your Job' (VIDEO); Dodd Muted On Bernanke Renomination Prospects; Economic Meltdown -- A Call for Systemic Change -- by John Perkins; Audit The Fed Effort Under Threat In House; The Money Man's Best Friend -- W Greider; Don't You Think It's Time to Reinstate the Laws That Would Have Prevented the Financial Crash?; The End of 'Too Big to Fail' -- Rep. Paul Kanjorski; Pentagon pursuing new investigation in to Bush propaganda program; save the economy!! audit the fed!! slice the parasite(s)!! [by vzn]; Too Big To Fail - Too Big To Exist, by Senator Bernie Sanders; To Create Jobs on Main Street, We Need to Kill Jobs on Wall Street, by Les Leopold, author of "The Looting of America"; Obama -- Tragically Charismatic; Why Keep Geithner?; How Goldman secretly bet on the U.S. housing crash; Wall Street Has a Gambling Problem by Sen. Maria Cantwell; What's Still Wrong with Wall Street; Thousands March in 3-Day Showdown with Banking Industry; Breaking Up the Big Banks, and Why Congress Won't Do It; Converting the Preachers -- George Soros launches a $50 million effort to purge economics of its free-market zeal.; Why Growing Income Inequality Is Bad for America; Breaking out of the Billionaire Bailout Society; Volcker Has Obama’s Ear, but Not on Overhaul of Banks; This Year's Biggest Hoax Is Tim Geithner's 'Solution' for the Economy, Not the Balloon Boy; How the Servant Became a Predator: Finance's Five Fatal Flaws; Greenspan Says U.S. Should Consider Breaking Up Large Banks; Fiat Money: The Fuel of Government; Geithner’s All Ears for Debt Cartel; The Dominance of the Financial Sector Has Become a Mortal Danger to Our Economic Securitys; Volcker: Obama Plans Maintain 'Too Big To Fail'; Geithner’s Appointment Book: Taking Orders from the International Bankers; Financial Follies 2.0 -- A year later, the banking industry remains largely unregulated. Why one former official thinks Obama's current team won't be able to turn the economy around.; Barack Obama Must See Michael Moore's New Movie (and So Must You)!; Study Says World's Stocks Controlled by Select Few -- Companies from US, UK and Australia have the most concentrated financial power.; The Real Lesson of Lehman's Fall -- Lehman Died So TARP and AIG Might Live; Shock Therapy -- Did Lehman Brothers Fall or Was It Pushed?; Wall Street’s New Gilded Age -- A year after the crash, a few financial giants are back to making millions, while average Americans face foreclosure and unemployment. What's wrong with this picture? by Niall Ferguson; Other Economists in the Room; How Did Economists Get It So Wrong? by Paul Krugman; China's Miracle Economy: Have the Chinese Become the World's Greatest Capitalists?; Income Inequality Is At An All-Time High: STUDY; Where did that bank bailout go? Watchdogs aren't sure; Remember That Whole Thing About Fixing Our Financial System? by Arianna Huffington; Bush: 'Wall Street got drunk and now it's got a hangover'; When Bush Got 'Drunk' -- As Meltdown Approached; Obama’s Nobel Headache -- Paul Krugman has emerged as Obama's toughest liberal critic. He's deeply skeptical of the bank bailout and pessimistic about the economy. Why the establishment worries he may be right.; The Most Misunderstood Man in America -- Joseph Stiglitz predicted the global financial meltdown. So why can't he get any respect here at home?; Historically, every financial and economic crisis has been used to further centralize power and concentrate wealth. This one is no different.; The Man Who Crashed the World -- by Michael Lewis; The New Trough -- The Wall Street bailout looks a lot like Iraq — a "free-fraud zone" where private contractors cash in on the mess they helped create by NAOMI KLEIN; Max Keiser: "Goldman Sachs' crash of markets last year was a false flag operation" [4m video]; The Great American Bubble Machine -- Matt Taibbi on how Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression; Ron Paul Strikes Gold -- Why the oft-marginalized congressman is the greatest threat to Obama’s regulatory plan.; Will the 'Dollar Wars' Kill What's Left of the American Dream?; Bullion and Bandits: The Improbable Rise and Fall of E-Gold; Confessing to the Converted, NYT profile on John Perkins; The Big Takeover The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution; Shock Doctrine: Naomi Klein on the Rise of Disaster Capitalism; The Quiet Coup by Simon Johnson; John Perkins on "The Secret History of the American Empire: Economic Hit Men, Jackals, and the Truth about Global Corruption"; Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions
nanothermite: Congressman Brad Sherman’s office admits explosives found in the World Trade Center dust – “…but not enough to bring down the towers.”; South Tower Smoking Guns by David Chandler [2m video]; Steven E Jones presentation on Nanothermite in Sacramento, California, on April 30th, 2009; Explosive Theory -- Eight years after 9/11, a growing organization of building trades professionals suspect that there was more to the event than the government will admit; South Tower flaming, thrusting nanothermite-coated projectile caught on video! [3m video]; Who Put Super-Thermite in the Twin Towers? By Christopher Bollyn; 29 Structural & Civil Engineers Cite Evidence for Controlled Explosive Demolition in Collapses of All 3 WTC High-Rises on 9/11; Richard Gage on KMPH Fox 26 in Fresno, CA [7m video]; Ask the President about Nanothermite -- vote up; Open Government Dialogue-- New Evidence Re 911 [nanothermite] -- vote up; Jonathan Kay: An evening in Montreal with Richard Gage, 9/11 Truth Movement prophet extraordinaire; Questions to Niels Harrit concerning the study "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe".; WeAreChange LA Questions VP Biden on 9/11 and Nano-thermite; Study claims 'highly engineered explosive' found in WTC rubble; The Future Doesnt Need Us by Bill Joy, 4-2000 [on societal danger of unconstrained nanotechnology]; Traces of explosives in 9/11 dust, scientists say; A danish scientist Niels Harrit, on nano-thermite in the WTC dust ( Youtube video, 10m, english subtitles ); top 10 connections between NIST and nanothermites by kevin ryan; Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe; Pardon Our Dust, or, Why the World Trade Center Dust Matters
9/11 conspiracy: CIA collusion with “Al Qaeda” financiers and attack planners; The Growing Absurdity and Desperation of Conspiracy Theory Debunkers; Psychology Today Hatchet Job [on Alex Jones] Labels Conspiracy Thinking A Psychotic Illness [pdf]; Forget Van Jones, The Majority Of Americans Question 9/11; Bombshell: Bin Laden worked for US until 9/11; 9/11 FEMA videographer at Ground Zero goes public; Debunking Myths on Conspiracy Theories; AIA Convention, San Francisco. Richard Gage Interviews Architects [video, 48m]; Active and retired top military brass met to discuss what really happened on 9/11; Area man stirs debate on WTC collapse South Bend firm's lab director fired after questioning federal probe; 9/11: Blueprint for Truth - WTC Building 7 - 10 minute Segment from New AE911Truth Companion Edition; deconstruction of NYT hatchet job on 9/11 truthers; Deconstructing Deceit: 9/11, The Media, and Myth Information [35 pg pdf by academics]; 9/11 Commission Counsel: Government Agreed to Lie About 9/11; Translation of Secret BND Report of September 11, 2001; AN ANALYSIS OF THE TERRORIST ATTACKS ON AMERICAN TARGETS ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 WITH APPROPRIATE BACKGROUND INFORMATION; Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth; 9-11 review; 9-11 research; alex jones InfoWars news; 911 blogger/news
cyberpunk: The sculpture of Christopher Conte; Creepy Cyberpunk Fantasies Come to Life; Joel on Software by Joel Spolsky; Coding Horror by Jeff Atwood

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AUGUST 29, 2009 4:30PM

Rate: 9 Flag

Polyamory

hi all, this is a post Ive been wanting to write ever since I joined OS, but figured Id wait a while to test the waters & see what the environment on here was like. you know some bloggers who do a "big reveal" after they've been on here awhile and begin to feel comfortable or even adventurous....

I am only going to touch on this personally, partially, because the topic for this post is highly controversial and even inflammatory or incendiary at times. slightly less so these days, but still. so, here I will don my asbestos underwear.

2009 has been a pretty incredible year for the subject of polyamory and less confrontational attitudes about it. its really hit the mainstream zeitgeist. there are various factors that seem to be contributing to this, it would be hard to figure them all out, but the following stand out. a sort of coincidental convergence, a synchronicity.

of course, I know I tend to be attuned to this particular subject, and could be accused of selective attention, but I do feel a shift this year maybe not necessarily or exactly in acceptance and spread, but at least public curiosity, & think all my links bear that out.

I collect interesting links all the time also & somehow just a whole bunch on marriage have been popping up lately. I decided to go and collect all my old favorites. heres some of what Ive been seeing lately.

gay rights/marriage in the spotlight during the 2008 election.
ashley madison web site tried to run a superbowl ad in january or so, and there has been huge media fallout over the site & the CEO.
the sanford affair that was messily splattered all over the media, and profiles of his wife & her reaction
a sort of long-running, philosophical handwringing over marriage that seems to be reaching a boiling point, issues of infidelity and divorce, & its relation to feminism etc.
there are some new books & a woman Jenny Block is a very public advocate
here on OS, a sirenita opened up about her 23-year polyamorous marriage/lifestyle and was rewarded with a front page EP and lots of comments. impressive. [28]
there are not many famous people espousing the lifestyle, but there are a rare few. famous oscar-winning actress Tilda Swinton [11] has recently come "out". frenchwoman carla bruni has spoken positively about it and apparently lived it herself. there are rumors from interview comments that actor/actress Will Smith/Jada Pinkett may have some variation going on but they seem disinclined to be open about it.
famous movies like Vicki Christina Barcelona by Woody Allen. which penelope cruz, playing a polyamorous woman, won an oscar for her performance. [28]
polyamory shows up in high-ratings tv reality shows like Girls Next Door starring Hugh Hefner and his perky girlfriends.

* * *

maybe my 1st memorable-for-me brush with polyamory was when I was in my mid 20s, mid 90s.. I went to a mtg of a semi-influential, motley crew of geeks, activists, libertarians, and anarchists in san francisco after reading their mailing list for a few years. [its a long story.] anyway [3] for example does suggest there is some natural overlap between geeks & polyamorists.

I discovered there the behind-the-scenes talk that one of the long haired, young, male founders was semi-openly polyamorous. I dont remember my reaction at the time, maybe a sort of snicker, & thought it kind of funky.

"only in SF" I think I figured. I recall a sort of amazement that he found more than one woman who would tolerate it. I wondered about the practicality of it all. and yes, just the slightest tinge of curiosity--mixed with envy!! you've heard of gay-curious or bi-curious? I guess it would be poly-curious.

marriage [and dating] is a very complex subject.. one of the most complex in anthropology probably. it cuts to the heart of human psychology. it took me many years to figure out my own attitudes. it took me many years to "wrap my brain" around the subject of polyamory. it came from a intense drive to fulfill the greek dictum, "know thyself."

I grew up in a very conservative family with a very conservative religion. it was only after many years of living on my own and trying to sort out my own attitudes was I able to figure out what view seemed the most natural to me or what I had the most affinity for. I also didnt start dating seriously until my mid20s!!

I think the big moment came for me after I had my first long term relationship, and then ran across articles in Salon of all places. 1999. it was some remarkably openminded, nonjudgemental articles about polyamory and a conference, presenting it as a choice not relevant to everyone, but rewarding for a small subculture. [1][2] and more recent articles pop up like [4].

I talked to my gf about it, and even though she had experienced a sort of semi polyamorous lifestyle herself in the past [she being a "child of the 60s"] she rejected it for us, saying she tried it multiple times and didnt like it.

* * *

a sign of amazing new levels of tolerance is the very recent newsweek article.[5] I guess if time magazine covers it also, we've got a genuine cultural movement.

A blog by Jenny Block, complete with a msg by her less-poly, more-monogamous-but-tolerant husband, describes her own polyamorous relationship in detail. she started the blog after she wrote a book. she gave a talk at the NYC poly pride conference. you can also see a very well produced video introduction by her. [6],[7],[8]

Ashley Madison web site is getting a huge amount of exposure, its pretty phenomenal. they came up with an ad early this year aimed at the super bowl but was rejected, but of course you can still catch it on youtube. [30] the mere fact that the site has the millions to advertise on the superbowl is quite a feat and demonstrates how large the phenomenon is.

profiles of Ashley Madison and its remarkable "out" CEO [he's "out" about his website, but not polyamorous in his own life because he says his wife forbids it!! maybe just a wannabe!!] are turning up in the most high profile places possible. CNN [24], Good Morning America [25], the View [26], Vanity Fair [9].

as for polyamory, you know its an official trend [at least among those big-city, latte-sipping, godless liberals] when the NYT covers it. or at least, flirts with it. [31]

yes, the internet seems to be playing a deciding factor in the awareness and spread of polyamory. ["spread"?? you know, like those horrible alien invasion movies.. Invasion of the Body Snatchers...Literally.] dating sites are in many ways a "killer app" of cyberspace. cyberspace at its heart is about connecting people together. coincidentally, so is polyamory :)

there has been some real earnest, fervent questioning of the modern vs medieval institution of marriage. eg [12] in the Atlantic entitled "Lets Call the Whole Thing Off" by a woman going through a divorce. marriage evolves over time. old attitude and perspectives about it no longer hold, and new ones emerge.

* * *

then theres the handwringing going on about Gov. Sanford and his wife Jenny. an impassioned example on open salon with a zillion comments is [29]. surprisingly his very respectable, with-it, class-act wife-- who expertly ran his campaign and may be a big reason he was elected in the 1st place-- has decided not to immediately divorce him.

Jenny Sanford speaks somewhat sympathetically of his mistress in Vogue [19]. "I feel sorry for her" she says and says the "door is open" for reconciliation with her husband. its not exactly the same emotion going on in polyamory [she specifically feels what her husband did was immoral], but close. reactions eg [18] are sympathetic to Mrs Sanford and argue that talking about the whole thing in terms of black and white, manachean, victim vs victimizer may be doing a disservice. [17]

one male writer sympathizes with the openness and genuineness of mark sanford in his now legendary press conference. [20]

christina nehring has written eloquently on the sanford affair. "in defense of mark sanford" in the New Republic [13]. in [14] she refers to a "new erotic fundamentalism" similar to puritanism. a reaction to her views in eg [15]. and we have come full circle with [16] by someone who's heard all the arguments, and still finds he likes his marriage exactly the way it is-- old-school-vanilla style.

* * *

mixed in with all this writing about marriage and polyamory are deep questions about human nature. for that, I really enjoy a new field of psychology known as "evolutionary psychology". its based on ideas and observations about apparent human instincts that are often somewhat similar, and can be compared and contrasted for insight, to other mammals [ie primates].

supposedly we are all past the difficulty of accepting the scientific yet unpalatable theory of evolution. but this new theory of evolutionary psychology seems to be running into some very similar social/intellectual resistance that the theory of evolution did over 150 years ago or so.

some excellent references on evolutionary psychology: [21], [22], [23]. Ridley [21] in particular has some very interesting observations on the history of human sexuality and how it interrelates with culture and anthropology. he mentions and analyzes the ancient chinese kings, many of whom kept concubines. it might seem like an ancient practice, but somehow surprisingly continues into and manifests in the modern era. [10]

a key issue with polyamory is JEALOUSY. in my reading of evolutionary psychology, I would suspect that jealousy is one of the primary instincts, probably deeply wired into our brains, possibly even into the ancient reptilian brain. because not surprisingly even reptiles can fight over mates, and that seems to be at the heart of jealousy. [so if you get jealous of something, be sure to take a special pride in that-- it may be something you share in common with reptiles! joking!]

a clue is that jealousy seems to be fundamentally related to what is called "mate value" which definitely has human analogs-- simplifed down to the stereotypes, & by gender, on one hand its the beautiful/sexy women, wealthy guys on the other. the latest thinking on jealousy can be found in a recent cover story of psychology today magazine [27].

so, Ive written a lot but just skimmed over vast expanses of topics, complexity, and nuance, I hope you will enjoy my collections of links, I guarantee its a lot of at-times intense food for thought & hope maybe there might be at least something for everyone.

so... in 2009 has polyamory hit "critical mass"? with a cultural movement, its hard to tell, but 2009 was a banner year.

and, depending on your responses to this post, I may "open up" more about my own personal opinions and experiences in the area.

or.... maybe not!!

this post is dedicated to AB, an Open Salon member specializing in erotic writing, who is working through some difficult marriage issues at the moment.

[1]
For polyamorists, responsibility and commitment replace jealousy
and distrust. As long as everyone remembers who's who.
http://www.salon.com/health/sex/urge/1999/07/17/polyamory/index.html

[2]
Stranger in a super-friendly land
On the planet of polyamory, eager-beavers and boneheads mingle with truly enlightened souls.
http://www.salon.com/health/sex/urge/1999/07/17/conference/

[3]
If code is free, why not me?
Some open-source geeks are as open-minded about sex as they are about hacking.
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/05/26/free_love/

[4]
Whole lotta love
When it comes to relationships, the polyamorist motto is "The more, the merrier." Considering the sorry state of traditional marriage, is multi-partnering due a closer look?
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/06/14/polyamory/

[5]
Only You. And You. And You.
Polyamory—relationships with multiple, mutually consenting partners—has a coming-out party.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/209164

[6]
Jenny Block answers your questions about relationship dynamics in an open marriage.
http://www.yourtango.com/blogs/open-up

[7]
Jenny Block profile
http://www.yourtango.com/users/jennyblock

[8]
I Have An Open Marriage
Author and YourTango blogger Jenny Block talks about her open marriage.
http://www.yourtango.com/20086690/i-have-an-open-marriage

[9]
The Cheaters’ Club
on internet infidelity via Ashley Madison
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2009/08/ashley-madison200908

[10]
China Concubines Return Thanks To Increasing Capitalism
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/26/china-concubines-return-t_n_269482.html

[11]
Tilda Swinton -- Hollywoods exquisite alien
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-30/hollywoods-exquisite-alien/

[12]
Lets call the whole thing off
The author is ending her marriage. Isn’t it time you did the same?
by Sandra Tsing Loh
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200907/divorce

[13]
Love Actually by Cristina Nehring
In defense of Mark Sanford.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=bd91be7a-0382-4c2d-a7b3-7f07ffa33be1

[14]
Cristina Nehring on the New Erotic Fundamentalism
http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20090820_cristina_nehring_on_the_new_erotic_fundamentalism/

[15]
Why your marriage sucks
Passion has died, argues author Cristina Nehring, taking domestic bliss with it. But is romance really in crisis?
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/06/24/vindication_love/index.html

[16]
It's hot! It's sexy! It's ... marriage!
Am I the only person who actually enjoys being hitched these days?
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/07/15/traister_marriage/index.html

[17]
"Victims" of Infidelity?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ruth-bettelheim/victims-of-infidelity_b_237694.html

[18]
Jenny Sanford strikes back
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/08/18/jenny_sanford/index.html

[19]
Notes on a Scandal
Jenny Sanford opens up to Rebecca Johnson about being a political wife—and the affair that changed it all.
http://www.style.com/vogue/feature/2009/08/jenny-sanford/

[20]
The strange nakedness of Mark Sanford
He was an emotional wreck at his press conference, but also something philandering politicians rarely are: Human
http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/06/25/mark_sanford/

[21]
The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature (Paperback) by Ridley
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolution-Human-Nature/dp/0140245480

[22]
What Women Want--What Men Want: Why the Sexes Still See Love and Commitment So Differently by Townsend
http://www.amazon.com/What-Women-Want-What-Men-Want/dp/0195131037

[23]
Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters: From Dating, Shopping, and Praying to Going to War and Becoming a Billionaire-- Two Evolutionary Psychologists Explain Why We Do What We Do
http://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-People-Have-More-Daughters/dp/0399533656

[24]
CNN and Ashley Madison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLUYKxGrCg8

[25]
Good Morning America Profiles Ashley Madison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXXWismNYT4

[26]
The View Hot Topics - Ashley Madison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_4I__YdnG0

[27]
Jealousy: Love's Destroyer
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200906/jealousy-loves-destroyer

[28]
sexy open relationship movie list by vzn
http://open.salon.com/blog/vzn/2009/06/08/sexy_open_relationshippolyamory_movie_list

[29]
Sanford: Maria, Not His Wife, Is His "Soul Mate"
http://open.salon.com/blog/mahabarbara/2009/06/30/sanford_maria_not_his_wife_is_his_soul_mate

[30]
AshleyMadison.com US Superbowl Commercial - Banned in US. Ran in Texas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwJSD46JSoM

[31]
Modern Love
An Open and Shut Marriage
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/fashion/03love.html

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Comments

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Hey, I'm all for it. I think heterosexuals (being the only types allowed to marry in all states presently) should marry everyone they are going to marry all at once. The divorces will make great reality t.v.

In the meantime, I just want to marry one woman. And stay married to her. xox

Robin Sneed

August 29, 2009 04:45 PM

Terrific list. I'm linking it from my page. You're a real polyamory scholar! I'm going to check out as many of these as I can, especially looking for what's been written about ethical considerations. Regardless of the response to this post, short of torches and pitchforks, you should just say what you want to say about your own ideas and life. Some people aren't going to like what you say, but that comes with the territory of thinking independently.

Sirenita Lake

August 29, 2009 06:29 PM

This is very well-researched. Amazing, really. Glad to read it.

mypsyche

August 29, 2009 07:34 PM

hey robin. I respect monogamy. & I respect "ethical nonmonogamy" & think theres few ppl who can pull it off, fewer than the number that try.
hey thanks for dropping by sirenita, I think you're one of the most independent thinkers on here.
"scholar" .. heh thanks -- sometimes a double edged sword there...

vzn

August 29, 2009 09:25 PM

Yeah. This really makes me uncomfortable Z. Think Roman baths, disease, moral decay... yuck! I'm sort of a hyper germaphobe also. Have you ever looked at the area between each prong of a fork?

I don't want to deal with a bunch of people teeming with viruses, just one is icky enough. Found one with great breath, nice clean habits (if a bit messy) and I'm sticking with him. So polyamorosity is not my thing.

the zen Haitian

September 02, 2009 12:50 PM

Do pursuit your bliss. No judgment. Really.

the zen Haitian

September 02, 2009 02:46 PM

Wow. Thanks for this. I wrote about the subject, too, in the Modern Love column of the New York Times. It was a piece called An Open and Shut Marriage (by Colette DeDonato) and it came out last year (Feb. 2008). Veryinteresting experience to write about and receive letters from people telling me their about their adventures. I'm impressed, too, by your archives on the subject.

Palindrome

September 02, 2009 02:52 PM

vzn: Maybe you're just doing it wrong?

john walker

September 02, 2009 03:21 PM

Impressive piece VZN –

The links are overwhelming. I don’t know that I have enough interest in this topic to review all of the information you’ve compiled. Our collective views on sexuality have evolved tremendously over the past few generations. Consider the content of prime time TV as a barometer of our changing societal norms. A few generations ago Lucy & Ricky didn’t even sleep in the same bed (and they were married!). Today’s TV characters jump in and out of bed as often as they change their underwear. What used to be unspeakable (sex), or regarded as shameful (having multiple partners) has become commonplace.

Modern media has not only pulled our darkest cultural secrets out of the closet, they have unmasked our heroes. What was only whispered about in past generations (i.e. JFK’s promiscuity) is front page news today. The myth of monogamy as a dominant state of being in our society jumped the shark when slick Willie got busted tickling Miss Monica with his Garcia y Vega. Surely that incident had to mess with everyone’s psyche.

I view sexual preference as a matter personal choice. I do believe you should be honest with your partner(s). I also stand firmly against violating others (i.e. rape, necrophilia, pedophilia, bestiality etc.). That’s never cool! Beyond that, it’s whatever floats your boat.

I can’t help but wonder what ramifications will result from our sexual evolution, as the structure which has been the cornerstone of civilization for the last few thousand years is no longer viewed as inevitable, or the only acceptable option. We are truly living in interesting times.

Personally, I happen to be a single minded creature of habit. I married early (age 21) and have been in a committed relationship with the same individual for close to 30 years. While I have the same natural urges and curiosities as other healthy males, I prefer the safety and security of clinging to my life partner for physical and emotional sustenance. However, I don’t begrudge anyone else from finding their own manner of happiness. As stated previously, it’s a matter of personal choice.

Spin Doctor

September 02, 2009 03:43 PM

Hey, what I might do in my house might not be what you do in your house, so what I do in my house is my business. Interesting read. Polymory not for me. I will note, in most of the first hand accounts I have read, it always seems that the poly relationships are usually one sided or dominated by one partners yearnings. Meaning one of the poly-couple usually ends up having a lot more "adventures,' than the other. Leaving the less successful half feels hurt and betrayed. Or the other common theme I have heard is that," they," found someone," better," or, "younger," and left. Familiar has always been sexier to me than, new, untested and unknown. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The Wanderer

September 02, 2009 05:13 PM

why not just do it? do you need a license?

al loomis

September 02, 2009 05:24 PM

al-- are you talking to me?
the "significant other" routinely threatens to leave me unless I am monogamous. catch22. same thing they say about all women, true of monogamy for me...."damned if you do & damned if you dont" :(

vzn

September 02, 2009 10:22 PM

"Maybe you're just doing it wrong?"
doing what wrong??? dont know what you are referring to

vzn

September 02, 2009 10:23 PM

hey zen haitian. I know what you are saying. polyamory is for now a fantasy for me. so is a world without STDs.
the closest I have come is serial monogamy.. its a sort of simulation.. and by the way, those who think polyamory is "icky" should realize it is not really a whole lot different than serial monogamy. thats the point made in a lot of articles....

vzn

September 02, 2009 10:25 PM

Rated.

You did forget my amazing, breakthrough blog post, however.

http://open.salon.com/blog/incandescent/2009/04/24/my_wife_my_boyfriend_and_i_-_polyamory

I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part. (Ha... haha! :D )

incandescent

September 02, 2009 10:31 PM

spin doctor-- very well written. yes marriage seems to have evolved very quickly in the US, faster than anywhere else in the world & compared to other cultures. it would be very interesting to read or write a book "history of marriage".. some books have been written on it I guess. people can be shocked to learn how different it was only a few generations ago. marriage also varies strongly between different cultures. it brings to light the truth that its a social contract, and human society can change, sometimes rapidly. divorce is also a big social phenomenon in the US that has emerged in our lifetimes. I dont exactly know where its all headed, but maybe polyamory is at least one aspect of a more diverse, flexible, open future.
btw you write "While I have the same natural urges and curiosities as other healthy males, I prefer the safety and security of clinging to my life partner for physical and emotional sustenance."
in a poly relationship, there is sometimes a "primary" relationship that basically fits your definition there.. care to take a 2nd stab on your position? :p

vzn

September 02, 2009 11:35 PM

marriage for me at times turns out to be a sort of version of MAD-- cold war detente based on mutual assured destruction....its a long story....

vzn

September 02, 2009 11:37 PM

hey incandescent thanks for dropping by, yeah you are somewhat legendary on here along with sirenita, & I hope you have some future thoughts on the subject in the blog. maybe you me & sirenita should figure out how to do a 3way post sometime :p

vzn

September 02, 2009 11:42 PM

wanderer-- you bring up a very important point about inequality in relationships .. I actually confronted jenny block about that in her comments. she blogged about how her gf felt bad that she couldnt get married. the post I thought was somewhat self-justifying, rationalizing.
a little secret, full disclosure, I suspect the extreme version of polyamory is narcissism. some polyamorists are narcissists, theres a natural overlap there I hate to say. I also dont really have sympathy for that whole polyamory thing of constantly talking about the relationship & trying to analyze it. that would drive me, for one, crazy.

vzn

September 02, 2009 11:56 PM

palindrome-- thx for dropping by. hope you write more about the subj here on open salon. excellent reference-- surprised I missed it.. NYT is one of my favorite refs. added to the post!!

vzn

September 02, 2009 11:58 PM

@vzn -
"I also dont really have sympathy for that whole polyamory thing of constantly talking about the relationship & trying to analyze it."

That would drive anyone crazy. That's not how "most" people practice poly. Please be wary of anyone claiming that they know the "one true way" - there isn't one.

Different practices work well for different people. And narcissism? Because you admit a capability to love more than one person? For me, my reasons were that I wanted a chance to express my love for both genders, and I wanted a family unit that included adults who loved each other in an intimate way, not the traditional nuclear family.

One might say that having children is at its core "narcissistic" as well because people want to "pass on their genes" - it's kind of the ultimate form of narcissism, isn't it?

(And yes, I think that is ridiculous, too. I was with you until the judgmental comment.)

incandescent

September 03, 2009 03:12 AM

vzn –

“In a poly relationship, there is sometimes a "primary" relationship that basically fits your definition there.. care to take a 2nd stab on your position?”

Relationships require a lot of maintenance. I would think adding an additional partner (or partners) under any circumstances would exponentially complicate things. Unless you are pre-disposed to the concept of sharing; or comfortable with being duplicitous, the juice is just not worth the squeeze.

My wife and I share a lot of things, but we draw the line when it comes to sharing ourselves with others. I do not stand in judgment; I simply choose not to participate.

Spin Doctor

September 03, 2009 12:18 PM

spin doctor. it is true a primary relationship takes a lot of maintenance. thats the joy of 2ndary relationships-- less maintenance required. its not a bug, its a feature, as they say in the software biz :)
seriously, one way to picture polyamory is as that phrase, "friends with benefits". Im sure you have friends. now, how about friends of the opposite sex? a 2ndary relationship I regard as basically, friends with benefits. polyamory attempts to defy the cliche that it is impossible to be friends with the opposite sex. counterintuitively-- arguably its the ultimate friendship :)

vzn

September 03, 2009 09:29 PM

incandescent-- I am not accusing anyone in particular of being narcissistic. Im saying, some polyamorists get carried away. there is nothing magically moral about affixing the label "polyamory" to oneself, one has to look at how it works out in practice. as the NYT article link I just added emphasizes, the devil is in the details.

also, any lifestyle choice also suffers the problem of overzealous "proseletyzers" or "advocates" who tend to be overly sensitive about slights or the subject. some polyamorists fit into this also. I tried to be nonconfrontational in my post. I have read your polyamory post, and I agree other ppl can be confrontational about it to say the least, but we also have to give people the freedom to say, or respond, "Im not interested in hearing any further details about your lifestyle choice, and that does not make me intolerant". ie to me healthy polyamory is also intrinsically not "in-your-face"...

vzn

September 03, 2009 09:34 PM

re "constantly trying to analyze the relationship". sometimes this happens too much even in a monogamous relationship, and it can be stifling/a drag. but I raised the point because I have seen that mentioned in multiple polyamory articles [it would take me awhile to dig up the quotes, but it was clearly a trend], and mentioned by practitioners, and its not my thing/style at all.

vzn

September 03, 2009 09:38 PM

ps it is not a coincidence that the word "favor" is used to describe sex. friends do each other favors. simple, right? :p
the language actually holds various clues about polyamory... I will have to think of other examples Ive run across...

vzn

September 03, 2009 09:43 PM

@vzn -
You wrote:
" I am not accusing anyone in particular of being narcissistic. Im saying, some polyamorists get carried away. there is nothing magically moral about affixing the label "polyamory" to oneself, one has to look at how it works out in practice."

Well, some monogamous people get carried away and become narcissistic. Some priests do. Some doctors do. Some high school football coaches do. Some gay people do. Some straight people do. Polyamorists absolutely don't have a stranglehold on the practice of narcissism. Anyone can get "carried away" with just about anything. I don't really see "polyamorists" doing so more or less than the average. I know quite a few poly people, also. Personally. As in, I have met dozens of them in my lifetime. None of them struck me as narcissistic people.

Perhaps it's simply writers who get narcissistic more often than most, since I assume you read quotes from people publishing their thoughts online about polyamory? What about all those quiet polyamorists who don't talk about it? ;)

You wrote:
"also, any lifestyle choice also suffers the problem of overzealous "proseletyzers" or "advocates" who tend to be overly sensitive about slights or the subject. some polyamorists fit into this also."

Absolutely. Any lifestyle - from gay bath house culture to Mormon missionary - can seek to advocate to others, this serves two psychological purposes - 1) It helps you make new friends, since we tend to befriend those like us and 2) It validates your personal choices in life, by trying to extol the virtues of those choices above all others. Is this a good idea? No, but again, I don't think polyamorous people advocate for polyamory as much as, say, monogamous Christian right-wingers advocate for their lifestyle. At least, I never have had a poly person get in my face and tell me that his or her lifestyle was the only way to Heaven. I've had more than one mono Christian do so. I still would very much hesitate to paint all Christians with the broad brush of being proseletyzers for their religion.

You wrote:
"ie to me healthy polyamory is also intrinsically not "in-your-face"..."

Healthy *anything* is "not in your face" - the thing is, what do you consider "in your face..." - if my wife and I kissed out at a restaurant while eating dinner, is that pushing my lifestyle in your face? What if my male partner and my wife and I all kiss at once? Why should we NOT do something - kiss in public - that mono, hetero people take for granted as a God-given right? Is acting normal, for us, shoving our lifestyle in anyone's face? Is watching two gay men kiss being "subjected" to the gay agenda?

I'm just curious what you find "in your face" about any polyamorist, or any of the poly people you have ever met.

You wrote:
"re "constantly trying to analyze the relationship". sometimes this happens too much even in a monogamous relationship, and it can be stifling/a drag. but I raised the point because I have seen that mentioned in multiple polyamory articles [it would take me awhile to dig up the quotes, but it was clearly a trend], and mentioned by practitioners, and its not my thing/style at all."

Sure, communication is an important aspect of any relationship. As in, if you feel jealous or hurt - talk about it. That same rule applies to monogamous relationships, at least, healthy monogamous relationships. It doesn't mean talking every detail of the relationship to death - that sounds quite boring. I think most poly people would agree. The emphasis on communication you see is simply an effort to let people know that poly doesn't equal cheating, and that you need to let your partner(s) know what you are doing - and have their support - or it's not poly; it's dishonest.

You wrote:
"ps it is not a coincidence that the word "favor" is used to describe sex. friends do each other favors. simple, right? :p
the language actually holds various clues about polyamory... I will have to think of other examples Ive run across..."

"Favor" is used to describe sex? Where and in what context? I certainly don't consider sex a favor I do for someone, or a favor I get from someone. If all goes well, sex ends in orgasm for both myself and any partners I am with at the time. How is that doing anyone a favor?

You wrote:
" I tried to be nonconfrontational in my post. I have read your polyamory post, and I agree other ppl can be confrontational about it to say the least, but we also have to give people the freedom to say, or respond, "Im not interested in hearing any further details about your lifestyle choice, and that does not make me intolerant". "

Of course not being interested in hearing about polyamory doesn't mean that you're intolerant. I'm not into S&M, for example, and I don't really care to hear about very heavy sadiomasochists and the pain they inflict upon each other. I also have absoluteluy no problem with S&M - I just don't practice it. Where has anyone ever suggested that you are intolerant of polyamory if you don't want to hear about it...? I would think, though, that you DO want to hear about it. You just wrote a huge blog post about the practice.

incandescent

September 03, 2009 11:57 PM

"again, I don't think polyamorous people advocate for polyamory as much as, say, monogamous Christian right-wingers advocate for their lifestyle." but you compare it with the most extreme possible. with advocacy, a little goes a long way. even someone who did it "way less" than a Christian extremist, Id be uncomfortable around.

sometimes I dont really think polyamorists should advocate much at all, period. I mean, the setting matters. in a social or party setting, I dont think it has much relevance unless its the topic of conversation. there are some fair venues to advocate. eg a blog :p

vzn

September 04, 2009 01:03 AM

incandescent-- I think you could find yourself in a crowd of polyamorists and still find something to disagree with .. fair enough!!

vzn

September 04, 2009 01:05 AM

@vzn -
"sometimes I dont really think polyamorists should advocate much at all, period"

When has a polyamorist ever once "advocated" to you...? I've never had anyone "advocate" a lifestyle to me, EXCEPT the radical Christian Right, which claims we all should live as they do - monogamously married heterosexual couples.

I see no other group - poly, gay, or otherwise - pushing any "agenda" on anyone. I've never once had a poly person some up to me and hand me a pamphlet on why I should be poly.

Have you? Honestly? Like, in casual conversation poly people try to convert you? How perfectly odd!

In this case, I am talking about polyamory because you wrote a blog post on it and invited comments so... if this isn't an appropriate venue to discuss it; what is?

As for me being able to find something to disagree with in a room full of polyamorists, of course I could. You think that all polyamorous people share the same opinions on everything? Hell, there are two people IN THIS ROOM that I disagree on several things with - my wife and my lover.

;)

incandescent

September 04, 2009 07:35 PM

incandescent.. somehow we dont seem to disagree yet you seem to be angry :(
dont quite understand that

vzn

September 04, 2009 08:17 PM

some more thoughts on narcissism vs polyamory, which incandescent bristles at. narcissism comes from the ancient greek legend of narcissus who fell in love with his own reflection, staring in the water. it is defined loosely as "self love" although it is now a recognized psychological condition. now, if I am hetero or homo sexual, thats just a sexual preference. but "polyamory" is specifically about love. a hetero or homosexual could be polyamorous. the two issues are "orthogonal" [independent] as geeks sometimes say. so polyamory is literally "many loves". it stands to reason that someone into "many loves" may also veer into [excessive] "self love".... and this is based on my research/cases in the links. you can find examples of this. some people are averse to polyamory because of this experience, and I certainly dont blame them.

vzn

September 04, 2009 08:22 PM

incandescent. my point is against "holier than thou". exactly your point. in a different guise. I think people of EVERY LIFESTYLE can veer into "subtle" proseletyzing in everyday interactions. (esp when they consider themselves a pminority or contrarian, possibly somewhat persecuted or discriminated against.) the word "proseletyze" has religious connotations you emphasize, of eg jehovahs witnesses showing up on your doorstep to read you the bible. that is a good example, because it is specifically part of their religious beliefs that they must "proseletyze".

however, polyamory is just another case of a possible proseletyzing opportunity. so Im saying, I espouse a noconfrontational, non "in your face" polyamory. there are those who are more aggressive in their beliefs about polyamory.

heres the deal-- I leave open to interpretation what "in your face" polyamory is. I disagree with you if you think nobody who is a polyamorous could be "in your face" about it. because if they are human, then they can be "in your face" about anything, including polyamory.

vzn

September 04, 2009 08:34 PM

Thanks for the very interesting collection of links. I'll be bookmarking it to ponder at my leisure. I find the range of opinions expressed in the comments so far pretty interesting. I get a taste here and there of something similar to what gays go through with the whole "I don't care what you do in your bedroom but I don't want to see two dudes (or chicks) kissing." So does that mean if they kiss on a parkbench, they are being "in your face?" If so, I think that's a pretty overbearing description of "in your face." If someone comes up to you at the water cooler at work and says "man, I LOVE being queer/poly/(Christian?)/whatever so much I think everyone should try it!" ok, that is in your face. I've been bi my whole life and poly off and on with some good (and spectacularly bad) experiences, and I wrestle with this because as a woman married to a man I can "pass" for straight and regular, and I'm sometimes uncomfortable with the "privilege" of that. Because I'm not an "in your face" queer and I currently don't have any other local, everyday love partners, it simply never occurs to anyone I'm other that what I seem on the surface. Because I don't want to be in anybody's face, there are few folks I can talk about it with. I guess that's why I relish a forum like this ans posts like yours, and have been slowly building my blog to tell one of the many stories I've been through, as a first attempt to get some of this out for release and even discussion. It's not what defines anyone, but for many it's a characteristic that poses some interesting life lessons and experiences. Thanks again.

cardamom

September 04, 2009 09:07 PM

@vzn -

What did I say that made me seem angry? This is simply conversation.

You wrote:
"it stands to reason that someone into "many loves" may also veer into [excessive] "self love""

I disagree. I think there is a huge leap of logic you are making there to assume that it "stands to reason" that someone into "many loves" would be more or less prone to the condition of narcissism. I would think the exact opposite - a misanthrope that hates all people would probably be more narcissistic, because he/she feels that nobody is deserving of their love.

I mean... your logic doesn't really flow, bro. That's all. ;)

That's basically my only point. I'm not sure what you're even talking about with the people "pushing" poly agendas. Is this possible? Sure, I mean, a human can push any agenda he or she wants.

I just don't see a huge poly advocacy movement out there, ala the "Keep Marriage Pure" movement - sorry.

But am I angry? Not at all. Just correcting you slightly where I perceive problems with your logic.

incandescent

September 04, 2009 09:59 PM

re PDA--regardless of gay/straight.. its sort of an open, ongoing question about whether that is "in your face". I probably take a conservative stand on this one. but for some reason all my gf's have seemed to really enjoy PDA. its sort of a way of broadcasting their proud "catch" I guess.
there was a comedian [forget which one] who had a joke about "ugly people kissing" in public. ewwwww!! as long as they're cute, I guess its ok with me :p

vzn

September 05, 2009 01:41 PM

"a misanthrope that hates all people would probably be more narcissistic, because he/she feels that nobody is deserving of their love."
huh??? you say my logic is mixed up. but in many ways, I would say misanthropy is the opposite of polyamory.
it seems, narcissists love people that love the narcissist her/himself. it is as if their love is predicated/contingent on others loving them, or more than they love others. so I am tempted to define a narcissist as an unbalanced/extreme form of polyamorism.

vzn

September 05, 2009 01:45 PM

you seem to define, or suspect, narcissists as antisocial. that is not the clinical definition or in their symptoms. in fact many of the symptoms relate to how others see the narcissist. narcissists are quite social-- superficially. they like to surround themselves with so-called"friends" who are more "admirers". I recently looked up the symptoms. Ive been interested in narcissism ever since I met a girl I felt exhibited some of the symptoms. blogging, facebook, twitter-- arguably also can be a real turn-on, hotbed, or playground for narcissists. our culture deserves to have much more dialogue on narcissism, some psychologists believe it is increasing due to our particular directions....

vzn

September 05, 2009 01:49 PM

ps I remember now. the "ugly people kissing" joke came from an old comedian, whose pretty much disappeared-- gary shandling

vzn

September 21, 2009 11:51 PM