Great points. I have been saying that the depopulation movement is on. Katrina was the shot across the bow, and and there are enough idiots who continue to use pesticides and herbicides, allow for Mosquito spraying adult mosquitos, which kills 1-5% and sends the rest back into the woods for a day, continue to make toxic our air and water. The doctor who delivered my told me ages ago, and continued to tell me over the years well into my 30's, to avoid Dr's and especially surgeons, and any drugs that were not at least 20-30 years old. The Bilderbergers, the Fascists, the Nazi's, the Republican Neo-cons, the mercenaries and the Legalized Drug Dealers Of America and their pushers, the physicians are all in on the gambit whether or not they are aware of it. I am certain so are the Democrats.

Fortunately for me and my family my Ford Foundation Fellowship Year, brought me scientific acceptance of the afterlife, so my faith will never be caught up in worldly garbage like medicine.

I predicted long ago that life in many nations is like men and women and children on a life raft surrounded by sharks and every now and then they have to toss someone overboard or there won't be enough food. The end of Belief in America, is a display of cowardice for which people I have neither pity nor desire to know.

PS: I rated your article.

That is a very interesting hypothesis. I so enjoy your provocative posts.

I too have made the contention that science is a religion, that it is expected to make up for all our moral deficiencies. Religion is any lie you tell yourself to disconnect from reality - all in the name of defining reality, of course. Many people are under the delusion that if they don't invoke the word "God" they therefore are not believers in religion. Simple-minded indeed.

Too much in our society is being normalized and excused...very good points and well written analysis - great take! Personally, I am an atheist when it comes to the huge medical industry...I espouse the philosophy that 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...'

I think most commentators have argued that, whatever respect the medical profession gets, it gets a lot less than it used to. My grandparents' generation would never, ever question a doctor's authority. Lots of people do that now.

I'm not sure these anecdotes prove differently.
In fact, at least two of the stories you've linked to don't seem to support the claims you take them to imply.

1) The story about about abdominal surgery for obese kids does not say or imply that "cutting open a child’s abdominal cavity and rearranging his digestive tract is considered normal." I don't think anyone quoted there says it's "normal." They call it "last ditch" and "drastic."

2) The article by Len Doyal doesn't say that doctors should have the right to kill us when we have outlived our usefulness. He says nothing about "usefulness" at all. And he limits his argument to severely suffering, severely non-competent patients. And even then, rather than asserting a right, he suggests careful regulation...very far from god-like status for doctors.

Respectfully, I would appreciate some clarifications if possible.

Specifically, who has lost the belief in an afterlife? And where are you getting that information? That was not made clear in your post, and it seems to be fundamental to your premise.

"Magical thinking"? People know the evidence exists. Can they quote it on demand? Probably not, because that's what doctors and nurses and other healthcare providers are for. The fact that a layperson cannot give you specific examples without access to research media means nothing and does not constitute "magical thinking".

That said, I don't expect laypersons to memorize medical statistics, but I do recommend using reliable sources to research medical conditions and procedures relevant to themselves and their families.

Books are not a reliable source for the statistics you quoted. The American Heart Association has such statistics, updated for 2009, on their website. Additionally, I'm curious as to whether or not you read the books in question.

Depression is a mental illness, and can be extremely severe. Not every person who is depressed is classified as disabled. My personal view is that "clinical" depression is overdiagnosed, anti-depressants are overprescribed, that the requirements for diagnosis are too lenient and do not allow for circumstances, and that many people suffering from mild depression would benefit more from activity and counseling than medications. However, I acknowledge that anti-depressants do work, and those suffering from major depression generally need more than the complimentary treatments listed above.

I can't really decipher your position regarding the guy suffering from depression, as first you criticize him for not working but participating in healthy exercise, then criticize him for stopping the exercise and getting "fat as a hippo". Sounds like his illness progressed. For the record, true depression has nothing to do with self-control in the manner you are attempting to use against this man. Don't you think that if he could stop his suffering, he would?

Regarding the child's bypass surgery: did you read the article you linked? I ask because the article was about bariatric procedures on minors being considered experimental(currently, there are several clinical studies ongoing)but growing, not "the norm" as you stated. The article outlines strict requirements that must be met to have the procedure; it also outlines numerous health benefits, including resolution of Type 2 diabetes.

Additionally, bariatric surgery does not involve "rearranging the digestive tract". The article also describes the different bariatric procedures.

As for "the most grotesque personal dysfunction" becoming normal, you yourself disputed this in the sentence immediately proceding the quote when you said, "...turned into a freak show...Octo-Mom...Half-Ton Dad...". By definition, freaky can't be normal.

Failing to mention the sloth, and gluttony of others is not due to influence from the medical profession; it's called "political correctness", the same thing that says we must refer to black people as "African-American", and the handicapped as "differently abled".
Healthcare has a lot to answer for already; we don't need to pin anything else on it.

The criticism. Perhaps you should stop worrying so much about why you can't criticize people--because frankly, it's rude and really none of your business--and start worrying about why you feel the need to.

You grossly misrepresented the contents of the last article you linked. The article is in reference to legalizing euthanasia for terminal patients with very short life expectancy, who are suffering intolerable pain and are not considered competant to make medical
decisions; quite different from what you implied.

To Chris MacDonald and sickofstupid:

I'll stand behind everything I said.

For the past several centuries, there has been a steady decline in the West in the influence of organized religion. There have been ups and downs, but the general trend is definitely downwards. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, overall, but it's self-evident the influence of religion is far less than it was in the days of, say, Henry II. That's a point so obvious I don't feel the need to defend it.

The point about the anecdote about my friend whose dad has bypass surgery was not that he could not cite studies on demand. The point is I told him that studies had shown no difference in survival rates between those who had bypass surgery and those who had noninvasive treatment, and his reply was simply, “I know bypass surgery helps. My dad had bypass surgery.” The fact that his dad had bypass surgery proves nothing, other than the fact that his dad had bypass surgery and survived it. Someone with a scientific background ought to know better than that.

“I’m curious as to whether or not you read the books in question.” If you’re going to insult people, that indicates to me you don’t have a case.

“Depression is a mental illness, and can be extremely severe.” That’s one way of looking at it. It’s not the only way. Another way is to accept that part of being a functional adult is to develop the internal and external resources to cope with adversity. The evidence backs me up on this. A study published in Public Library of Science found that overall, antidepressants were no better than a placebo. They helped only the sickest 3% of patients. I could have told them that. We were meant to be strong and healthy. We are not fragile creatures who constantly need expensive medical interventions to keep us alive and regulate our moods. Our great-grandparents coped with wars, famines, slavery, pogroms, purges, and holocausts, and they didn’t have Prozac.

The article was by Kirsch et al.: “Initial Severity and Antidepressant Benefits: A Meta-Analysis of Data Submitted to the Food and Drug Administration.” I’d post a link, but for some reason I don’t seem to be able to create links in the “comments” section.

Regarding the fellow who was diagnosed as “depressed” although he continued to practice aikido, my position is simple: the fact that he continued to practice aikido indicated that there was nothing seriously wrong with him – until he decided to be defined by the label his doctor gave him.

“Don’t you think that if he could stop his suffering, he would?” No, I don’t. I’ve already explained why I think he had the ability to cope with his “depression.” All of us have a part of ourselves which would like nothing better than a good excuse, which would like nothing better than to be taken care of for the rest of our lives. Part of the challenge of being a functional human being is to be aware of that side of ourselves and to keep it from eclipsing our better selves.

“Regarding the child’s bypass surgery: did you read the article you linked?” Again, if you’re going to insult people, that indicates to me you don’t have a case. Yes, I know the word “experimental” was used to describe his surgery. A better descriptor would be, “utterly insane.” This boy is so far away from what a teenage boy should be like it’s pathetic. A teenage boy should be working up a sweat every single day, either playing sports or working out or doing strenuous labor or at least chasing girls.

Oh, by the way, when I was that boy’s age, I used to eat a double lunch too. But I was on the cross country team, and I was burning it off. I also didn’t drink a two-liter bottle of soda every day. (Yeccccch!)

There was nothing wrong with this boy’s digestive tract. The problem is his own behavior. It’s too bad he has a mother who has enabled him, and it’s too bad his father is absent from his life, but he’s almost an adult now, and he is going to have to start taking responsibility for his own life. Or not. Here’s an article in the Washington Post about people who had bariatric surgery, and who keep stuffing their bodies with food they don’t need, until their stomachs stretch back to their original sizes

“If at first you don’t succeed, maybe it’s time for a different type of gastric surgery” by Larry Lindner. Washington Post October 28 2008

I spend a lot of time in Africa, and what always strikes me when I go there is how healthy the people there look. And the less access they have to medical care, the healthier they look. I don’t see anybody who looks like that kid. Not that they are emaciated. They have strong healthy bodies, bright eyes, clear skin. Do you think that may be because they eat a low-fat diet, walk long distances, and do strenuous labor? Or do you think they have already all had their bariatric surgeries?

“The article…also outlines numerous health benefits…” Among those benefits is, uh, death. Here’s a study by David R Flum, M.D. et al. who followed all Medicare patients who underwent bariatric surgery for the years 1997-2002. In other words these data were not dredged in any way. For patients under the age of 25, the one-year mortality rate was one out of fifty.

“Early mortality among Medicare beneficiaries undergoing bariatric surgical procedures” by David R. Flum, et al. JAMA 204:1903-1908.

I am unable to find any data on the annual death rate of a comparable group of patients who did not undergo the surgery. Can you help me?

“Additionally, bariatric surgery does not involve ‘rearranging the digestive tract.’” I call it rearranging. Was he born with that lap band?

“The article also describes different bariatric procedures.” Yes, I am perfectly aware there are more expensive and invasive procedures than the lap band. That strikes me as pretty faint praise.

“As for ‘the most grotesque personal dysfunction’ becoming normal, you yourself disputed this in the sentence immediately preceding the quote when you said, “…turned into a freak show…” Yes, I did dispute that. That was the whole point of the essay. It’s other people who want us to consider such behavior as normal. I linked to an article which defended the Octo-Mom’s lifestyle choices as pardonable imperfection, and I have read numerous other articles (some on Salon) which made the same point. As for the Half-Ton Dad, I watched the entire show and I never once heard anyone utter the words “sloth” or “gluttony.”

“Perhaps you should stop worrying so much about why you can’t criticize people – because, frankly, it’s rude and none of your business.” It damn well is my business if I have to pay for their irresponsibility, and if I have to foot the bill for medicines and procedures which do more harm than good. See the books by Hadler and Brownlee for a whole slew of examples. Also see “Medical Nemesis” by Ivan Illich, “Confessions of a Medical Heretic” by Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D., Should I Be Tested For Cancer?” by H. Gilbert Welch, M.D., M.P.H., and “The Lobotomist” by Jack El-Hai for more examples. But I suppose you’re going to accuse me of not reading these books, either.

“You grossly misrepresented the contents of the last article you linked.” Well, okay, I did overstate my case there. I’ll concede that point. I hope that doesn’t distract attention from my main point, which is I don’t want to make killing us part of the job of physicians and nurses. I am deeply concerned about what kind of people that will attract to those professions, and what it will do to those already in those professions. As I made clear in my post, “Should doctors kill?”, it is already ridiculously easy for physicians and nurses to get away with murder. Despite out difference, I really do appreciate your writing.

To sickofstupid:

Oh and another thing. I've already mentioned that the lap-band is less expensive and invasive than other types of surgeries. It's also less effective at promoting weight loss.

I know of only one study of long-term weight loss after bariatric surgery. (Which, I assume, is the whole point of the surgery -- or have they stopped pretending this is about anything other than enriching members of the surgical profession?) That is the Swedish Obese Subjects study, and they found that average weight loss ten years after lap-band surgery was 15% of the patient's excess weight.

This boy featured in the Washington Post article was five-foot four and weighed 265 pounds. Now, let assume he should weigh no more than about 135 pounds. That means he's about 130 pounds overweight. Fifteen percent of 130 pounds is, uh, 20 pounds.

We're talking about expensive, invasie surgery for a long term weight-loss of 20 pounds. If anyone can't see what a rotten substitute that is for taking care of the body he ws born with, I have nothing further to say to them.

to sickofstupid:

Again, if you know of any long-term studies on this matter, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.

I have to say, I hate the way that the comments are set up here. I spend a lot of time scrolling, trying to find the post I'm trying to respond to, or open another tab and try to manage that (I generally have at least a dozen open, and it's a right pain in the arse). Anyway.

I hate to tell you this, but doctors and nurses already routinely assist with ending the lives of terminal patients. It's generally not discussed, but this is how it works:

A provider orders morphine injected for a terminal patient thought to be in extreme pain or discomfort. They are generally too far along to speak, or move. Mottling is often already present, indicating that death is not far way. The nurse generally injects the morphine every hour, and let me tell you, the staff and the families are happy for them to do it. It does make the patient visibly more comfortable. What's not discussed is the fact that the dosage of injected morphine every hour in a terminal, elderly patient definitely helps the death along. At that point though, what difference does it really make? The morphine eases their pain; helps slow and relax their respirations, making breathing easier and more efficiently oxygenating the blood; soothes them so that the moans of pain quiet, and the blood pressure decreases. It helps the staff, who become attached to the people they care for, sometimes for years; it's extremely difficult to watch as someone suffers from severe pain and is obviously dying. It helps the families at the bedside, who are anxious and upset--often to the point of hysteria--as they listen to the moans and the monitors. As the patient visibly relaxes, so does the staff, and so do the families. All I can say is that if you haven't been there, you can't know what we do. I am definitely a woman of faith in many ways. I had some trouble with this at first. Then, after holding the hand of my first terminal patient as he died, I began to understand. After sitting with the family of a prominent, dying physician--which included his son, a physician who practiced in the same hospital I did--while he received his morphine, I understood a bit more. What pushed me over the edge and took away all my objections to the practice was an event that occured while I was practicing in Hawaii during a travel assignment. In Hawaii, the custom is for the entire extended family to be present for the patient's death. The patient was a Japanese man dying of congestive heart failure(CHF), which is a terrible way to die. This was a man who had always been rather grouchy, but didn't speak; he'd make his feelings clear through the glare in his eyes, and the habit of spitting his food, drink or crushed medications back out at the staff when he was particularly annoyed. Around 50 of his family members were present, including small children; we had to move his bed into the common room so that the family could all be with him.We could hear the fluid gurgling in his lungs. His assigned physician--who refused to attend him--believed he was dying from pneumonia, and refused to prescribe the diuretic that I believe would have saved his life. We argued about that many times that night, to no avail. What she did prescribe was ever-increasing amounts of morphine--more than customary, in intervals more frequent than customary. The man was desperate to get a breath. How awful, to be drowning in your own fluids, being able to hear the gurgling in your chest as you die slowly, agonizingly, unable to take enough breath to live with your wife and grandchildren and great-grandchildren present. Every time we entered the room, the family would gather closely, hoping that we could somehow end his suffering; it was clear that he was tormented. I was present when the final, largest dose of morphine was injected. I saw the man--who had never given me a kind look, or anything but a grouchy look before--look up at me, desperation in his eyes. It was a look that welcomed death. As the morphine began its work, I could see his body relax, his labored breathing ease. And I saw the look in his eyes, one I had certainly never seen there before; it was gratitude. We left him to his family; they came to us a few minutes later. It fell to me to put the stethoscope over his heart, to listen for signs of life; it fell to me to announce his death to the 50 family members in attendance, and listen to the wails and the weeping...and the thanks. They mourned the passing of their loved one, but they were so very grateful to us for ending his suffering. It had never been more clear to me that the morphine was the cause of his death (he passed less than 5 minutes after the final injection); it had never been more clear that its use at that time was a blessing.

I do intend to address the rest of your comments as soon as I have time; I do find our debates interesting, and hope that I can help you understand my point of view. I also responded to your comments on Cindy Ross' blog; I intend to go into greater detail in my own, as my comments tend to be far too long.

Wow. Just wow.

So you and your colleagues feel free to kill us when you decide our lives are no longer worth living.

Thanks for the warning.

To "sickof stupid:"

So why don't you post under your own name, instead of a snarky psedonym?

Do you realize how easy it would be for anyone with a modicum of hacking skills to obtain your ISP number and figure out who you are?

To sickofstupid:

I don't give legal advice, but I have a few questions.

Is what that doctor did legal in the state of Hawaii?

If not, then does that make anyone else present an accessory to a felony?

Might this have something to do with the fact that you won't use your real name?

The anonymity of the internet is not absolute. I might tell you to be careful, but as I said, I don't give legal advice.

Love this article! So True!! I believe anti-depressants will be outlawed within 50 years after stats show how many suicides/homicides they inspired. I'm going to a naturopath now because my Dr. wanted to put me on hormones that cause breast cancer and heart attacks. Well, I guess I'd feel good BEFORE I die. I work at a hospital and have watched 2 of my friends almost killed due to a lot of malpractice. Anyhow, I believe you're right.
I also believe that many Americans have substituted the Government for religion. Katrina taught us that. I won't leave. I won't prepare. I will sit on my ass until the gov't comes and saves me. Really? We've come to that? Yes. Yes we have. Rated.