should not be discussed among people who want to remain friends. The man below and I are both older, returning students, both fairly mellow and we couldn't even stay calm talking about it. What is it about ideas and ideals that makes people so volatile?

[9/15/2008 9:28:11 PM] A good and kind man says: the DOW is crazy today
[9/15/2008 9:28:36 PM] Hyblaean says: haven't even looked- saw something about lay offs? what was that about?
[9/15/2008 9:28:58 PM] A good and kind man says: When I left Unilever we were laid off?
[9/15/2008 9:29:18 PM] A good and kind man says: But the market dropped huge in the US, some in Europe too.
[9/15/2008 9:29:36 PM] Hyblaean says: what does it mean?
[9/15/2008 9:30:46 PM] A good and kind man says: My interpretation, The crazy up swing with all the high prices for housing and low mortgage rates is now kicking the market in the teeth for being so reckless.
[9/15/2008 9:31:38 PM] Hyblaean says: ok, now translate that for someone who owns a townhouse by virtue of marriage
[9/15/2008 9:33:32 PM] A good and kind man says: I thought that was understandable but to put it in other words the financial companies got very risky in there investments and it everything was artificially nice but when a little trouble in paying the high risk mortgages happened a lot of trouble happened.
[9/15/2008 9:33:57 PM] Hyblaean says: how is that new to this week- we've had that for the last 3-4 years
[9/15/2008 9:35:01 PM] A good and kind man says: Well Fannie Mae recently and Lehman bros over the weekend I think it is still just fallout, they don't know how secure the financial companies are, their confidence is shaken.
[9/15/2008 9:35:54 PM] A good and kind man says: As you know what it means for the future no one knows.
[9/15/2008 9:36:05 PM] Hyblaean says: well what is your interpretation
[9/15/2008 9:36:28 PM] A good and kind man says: I listen very little to the news, what it means is that I lost a good portion of my savings, since much of it is in the market.
[9/15/2008 9:36:44 PM] Hyblaean says: only if you take it out now- do you need to?
[9/15/2008 9:38:14 PM] A good and kind man says: I avoided saying this but it is the first thing I say, no one, and I mean no one has a crystal ball, I couldn't believe the growth performance of the market for the past 20 years, I am always bearish, so ....no one has a crystal ball. Yeah I wanted to pull my money months ago now, I don't think so I'll ride it out.
[9/15/2008 9:38:59 PM] Hyblaean says: good
[9/15/2008 9:39:08 PM] A good and kind man says: maybe
[9/15/2008 9:39:11 PM] Hyblaean says: you won't lose any money until you pull out
[9/15/2008 9:39:21 PM] Hyblaean says: so s'best not to do it in a bear market
[9/15/2008 9:39:37 PM] Hyblaean says: and it always always always comes around
[9/15/2008 9:39:49 PM] A good and kind man says: maybe, historically definitely, but still a maybe.
[9/15/2008 9:40:02 PM] Hyblaean says: laugh, unless we collapse as a country
[9/15/2008 9:40:11 PM] A good and kind man says: maybe
[9/15/2008 9:40:17 PM] Hyblaean says: which will happen, but I don't think in the next 20 yrs
[9/15/2008 9:40:24 PM] Hyblaean says: we will have a slower death
[9/15/2008 9:40:54 PM] A good and kind man says: unless it is a slow death that is similar to Japans what is it 20 year recession.
[9/15/2008 9:41:20 PM] Hyblaean says: Japan...how is their 'yen' doing?
[9/15/2008 9:41:40 PM] Hyblaean says: why does everyone say it's a recession? they kick butt financially
[9/15/2008 9:41:59 PM] A good and kind man says: the US doesn't have to go to a death but just a change in status, and what happened in the past 50 years may be very different than the next 50.
[9/15/2008 9:42:02 PM] Hyblaean says: i think not having a military has helped them economically
[9/15/2008 9:43:31 PM] Hyblaean says: let's stick with Japan a sec, since you know more about that country- I'm curious, was thinking the other day about cost of military- and how we actually get money from ours, because we sell weapons, but Japan looks (from the innocent view of an art student/nursing student) to have done very well not having a military
[9/15/2008 9:43:58 PM] A good and kind man says: and reverse for us, especially in a war like this one.
[9/15/2008 9:44:12 PM] Hyblaean says: ? hm
[9/15/2008 9:44:28 PM] Hyblaean says: are you suggesting we are losing money on this war
[9/15/2008 9:44:40 PM] A good and kind man says: Definitely helped them not to worry about military expenditures.
[9/15/2008 9:45:12 PM] Hyblaean says: we make money (i feel, don't ask me to prove it) through selling weapons to other countries- and weapon technology
[9/15/2008 9:45:35 PM] Hyblaean says: have you ever read Jane's
[9/15/2008 9:45:56 PM] A good and kind man says: I am not paying the war machine but from a very simplistic view (mine) is seems so, that we are losing money. many countries make war machines w/out going to war.
[9/15/2008 9:46:12 PM] Hyblaean says: http://www.janes.com/
[9/15/2008 9:46:30 PM] Hyblaean says: I do not believe the people in power are losing money, or we wouldn't be there
[9/15/2008 9:47:48 PM] A good and kind man says: As perhaps Haliburton and Cheney are making money but the economy as a whole is suffering.
[9/15/2008 9:48:01 PM] Hyblaean says: it has to be more than just them
[9/15/2008 9:48:33 PM] Hyblaean says: we have too many very large fish here and most of them must be happy, or we would be moving in another direction
[9/15/2008 9:48:52 PM] A good and kind man says: My very simple view, we went in for oil and didn't get it, we didn't get out, we are in a quagmire and everybody suffers.
[9/15/2008 9:49:18 PM] Hyblaean says: i do not see it that way : )
[9/15/2008 9:49:30 PM] Hyblaean says: it's funny, none of us will ever know
[9/15/2008 9:49:38 PM] Hyblaean says: not even the press
[9/15/2008 9:49:48 PM] Hyblaean says: go democracy, whoo oooh
[9/15/2008 9:49:55 PM] A good and kind man says: The financial conservatives, the good old Republicans I have respect for, I believe do not like the financial shape that Bush has put us in.
[9/15/2008 9:50:50 PM] Hyblaean says: I wouldn't know- I know mostly conservatives due to the army brat thing- but *shrug* we don't generally talk politics, except my folks and they love Bush
[9/15/2008 9:51:02 PM] Hyblaean says: well loved the elder and are fairly tolerant to the younger
[9/15/2008 9:51:03 PM] A good and kind man says: A wise man knows when to quit, walk away, not go in and try and take over the country.
[9/15/2008 9:51:19 PM] Hyblaean says: I don't see us as doing that
[9/15/2008 9:51:27 PM] A good and kind man says: Iraq
[9/15/2008 9:51:30 PM] Hyblaean says: I know
[9/15/2008 9:51:42 PM] Hyblaean says: : )
[9/15/2008 9:51:44 PM] A good and kind man says: Whatever we are doing there.
[chat, erase, chat, erase]
[9/15/2008 9:51:50 PM] Hyblaean says: aw go ahead and say it
[9/15/2008 9:51:57 PM] Hyblaean says: dunno, I will never know
[9/15/2008 9:52:08 PM] Hyblaean says: my idea is that we are making money somehow
[9/15/2008 9:52:44 PM] A good and kind man says: We shouldn't have gone in, just to do it forecasted the state we are in now, by most liberals and many many republicans, financial conservatives and war hawks.
[9/15/2008 9:54:00 PM] A good and kind man says: That is something you may want to look at before it gets too late, is it real or how do you substantiate it, is it worth living on that premise? I'd add it to the pile of don't knows just as possible as the opposite.
[9/15/2008 9:54:38 PM] Hyblaean says: you will have to explain that last post, it shot over my head
[9/15/2008 9:55:42 PM] A good and kind man says: Sorry but I believe we are the victims of a rosy picture of everything is OK. and the coment, we are making money somehow seems to fall in that category.
[9/15/2008 9:56:55 PM] A good and kind man says: And I infer that we are making money somehow means that it is all pretty good and the master plan that we are financially secure through the moves and methods of action over the last 8 years have been well calculated and on plan.
[9/15/2008 9:58:00 PM] Hyblaean says: I do not know, I do not think we can know, because we do not get the info that people higher up get. We get no real info
[9/15/2008 9:58:27 PM] Hyblaean says: I don't agree with war, but I can't blindly judge when I sit fat and happy in the middle of a country that is rich off war
[9/15/2008 9:58:30 PM] Hyblaean says: safe
[9/15/2008 9:59:46 PM] A good and kind man says: So go with what you do know, it works for me, break it down to critical thinking exercise, leave the dunno's in one pile and the levels of confidence in what you really know, the basic stuff in the know piles, because money is spent on the war, some companies make money, the world market is changing etc. that is all.
[9/15/2008 10:00:28 PM] Hyblaean says: i do not have enough information to make an informed decision
[9/15/2008 10:01:00 PM] A good and kind man says: No blind judging, just judging w/open eyes, no presumptions or worries about guilt for being rich or safe.
[9/15/2008 10:01:25 PM] Hyblaean says: there is no judging with open eyes when you do not have the facts!! that is my point
[9/15/2008 10:02:43 PM] A good and kind man says: I look at the basic information that I am given w/out looking at the things I don't know, for me that is the foundation. I don't believe in war to make money.
[9/15/2008 10:02:56 PM] Hyblaean says: then you are not American
[9/15/2008 10:03:11 PM] A good and kind man says: Yeah at least not a Republican.
[9/15/2008 10:03:20 PM] Hyblaean says: you sit here, safe, wealthy, in this country that makes money off of war, and say you don't believe in it?
[9/15/2008 10:03:35 PM] Hyblaean says: the Dems benefit as much as the Reps as much as the Indies
[9/15/2008 10:03:47 PM] Hyblaean says: We all are benefiting from it
[9/15/2008 10:04:10 PM] A good and kind man says: My pursuit of happiness is different than wanting money from war.
[9/15/2008 10:04:36 PM] Hyblaean says: everything I have comes from war, and I don't believe in it :) it's ironic- and blind and stupid, if you truly ...........then move to another country
[9/15/2008 10:04:40 PM] Hyblaean says: this country is rich off war
[9/15/2008 10:04:50 PM] A good and kind man says: I don't know if we benefit from the war financially, we may have seen a case for that in WWII but I don't know about this one.
[9/15/2008 10:05:06 PM] Hyblaean says: you can't say it's wrong, but still live here and benefit- that just makes you a hypocrite not righteous
[9/15/2008 10:06:55 PM] A good and kind man says: I believe in a pursuit of hapiness that is integral to me, different than yours so I don't know what you mean I should leave, that seems a little off the wall, I believe in changing it, vote out the war mongers. Let's get more than 50% or the electoral vote this time.
[9/15/2008 10:07:17 PM] Hyblaean says: do you really want to talk politics Peter? I just annoy people when I do- I'm too left for the rights, too right for the lefts and too practicle and not idealistic enough for the indies, we probably will not agree regardless of your pt of view
[9/15/2008 10:08:18 PM] A good and kind man says: That is fine just don't throw out what I should do doesn't seem like you are as far left as you think when you use one of the far rights lines so quickly.
[9/15/2008 10:08:50 PM] Hyblaean says: ok, sounds fair, I'm done with this conversation, how about you?
[9/15/2008 10:09:58 PM] A good and kind man says: Yeah, but you are much further right than you let on. I am very left as I have never given pretentions not to be, I just hate people stating you don't belong here if........(excuse me) fuck em.
[9/15/2008 10:12:18 PM] A good and kind man says: "[10:04:13 PM] Hyblaean says: everything I have comes from war, and I don't believe in it :) it's ironic- and blind and stupid, if you truly ...........then move to another country "                       Inflammatory but hey we were talking, and hell you know I know that line who says it where it comes from and what it means to them. Hope we are still good.
[9/15/2008 10:13:28 PM] Hyblaean says: you engage me in a political conversation and don't allow me to have my own opinions- sure, we are all good
[9/15/2008 10:16:11 PM] A good and kind man says: I don't think I didn't allow your opinions but your opinion seemed to be more emphatic than an opinion but a basic belief that I should not be here for being doveish. I didn't do anything to that effect to you. War, if you like it, is something I can respect, I know a load of people it rocks their world, rather want it happening than not.
[9/15/2008 10:17:06 PM] Hyblaean says: are we done yet? you still do not understand what I said and are unwilling to hear what I really have to say, so it's pretty much pointless to go on, because you will never hear me
[9/15/2008 10:17:25 PM] Hyblaean says: all i can do is listen to you and agree with you or piss off
[9/15/2008 10:17:34 PM] Hyblaean says: that is pretty much how politics is i guess
[9/15/2008 10:17:47 PM] A good and kind man says: OK we'll talk later and please make me understand your point don't give up.
[9/15/2008 10:18:06 PM] Hyblaean says: why would you want to do that if we are going to fight?
[9/15/2008 10:18:10 PM] Hyblaean says: that seems not good
[9/15/2008 10:18:42 PM] A good and kind man says: You said I don't see your point I missed it, maybe what I missed I am not pissed off about.
[9/15/2008 10:19:17 PM] Hyblaean says: so if you agree with what I write next then you'll still like me? what if you don't
[9/15/2008 10:19:30 PM] Hyblaean says: you probably won't, no one has agreed with me yet
[9/15/2008 10:19:37 PM] Hyblaean says: : ) you looking to be the first?
[9/15/2008 10:19:39 PM] A good and kind man says: that would be tough cause I like you.
[9/15/2008 10:19:49 PM] Hyblaean says: I hate war
[9/15/2008 10:20:01 PM] Hyblaean says: I want 50% representation by women
[9/15/2008 10:20:11 PM] A good and kind man says: Is that it? We both have a huge common ground then.
[9/15/2008 10:20:16 PM] Hyblaean says: I want to be able to have the same rights and responsibilities as straights
[9/15/2008 10:20:48 PM] Hyblaean says: no- I believe that we do not know what is going on as far as intelligence and if we did then we might opt to go to war
[9/15/2008 10:21:05 PM] Hyblaean says: if someone wanted me to be a woman in Saudi Arabia, I'd go to war and fight them first
[9/15/2008 10:21:49 PM] Hyblaean says: but that is not why i think the men in Washington fight, I think they fight for money and I benefit from that- one of the ways in which I benefit is that I am not bought and sold by the men around me
[9/15/2008 10:22:04 PM] Hyblaean says: so it's hard for me to know what I can fight and what I can't
[9/15/2008 10:22:11 PM] A good and kind man says: Yeah I would take that with a huge grain of salt, kinda US propaganda, if you only knew you would feel diferent but we can't tell you cause......
[9/15/2008 10:22:43 PM] Hyblaean says: no, I know from the $$ on Janes
[9/15/2008 10:22:50 PM] Hyblaean says: not from our fearless leaders
[9/15/2008 10:22:56 PM] Hyblaean says: I see where our money comes from
[9/15/2008 10:22:59 PM] A good and kind man says: I agree with everything you said except for the previous line, it seems to be an excerpt from a CIA propaganda line.
[9/15/2008 10:23:04 PM] Hyblaean says: and I am living on that money
[9/15/2008 10:23:22 PM] Hyblaean says: you can disagree, but do not expect me to agree with you
[9/15/2008 10:23:33 PM] Hyblaean says: we will not see eye to eye on that one
[9/15/2008 10:25:22 PM] A good and kind man says: We are living on money that the fortunes of war, industry and the people of this country both soldiers and civilians have brought us, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have stand up for wanting less war, more equal rights etc.
[9/15/2008 10:26:19 PM] Hyblaean says: I think I agree with that- it is saying that war is bad- and "I'm anti-war" that gets me upset- many women and men say that and they sit there in their fancy clothes and their safety and it makes me angry
[9/15/2008 10:26:32 PM] Hyblaean says: not specifically angry, just itchy peeved
[9/15/2008 10:26:38 PM] Hyblaean says: it's a fairness thing
[9/15/2008 10:27:09 PM] Hyblaean says: and you do not have to agree in the slightest
[9/15/2008 10:27:19 PM] Hyblaean says: I would like to hear your viewpoint, just not anger
[9/15/2008 10:27:55 PM] A good and kind man says: We are all individuals and have points of view that are our own. Yeah I see what you are saying but I really am not into that feeling, but I respect you having that feeling.
[9/15/2008 10:28:13 PM] Hyblaean says: ? huh
[9/15/2008 10:29:05 PM] Hyblaean says: it also seems weird to me that the richer people are the more they are doves- it's counter intuitive
[9/15/2008 10:29:09 PM] A good and kind man says: Sitting in your nice car, hating war, angers you? I understand that you said you have that sentiment, not mine but yours.
[9/15/2008 10:29:10 PM] Hyblaean says: i don't get it
[9/15/2008 10:29:45 PM] Hyblaean says: if people are so devatstated by our waring, then send 50% of your money made from wars to a family overseas
[9/15/2008 10:29:56 PM] Hyblaean says: it's about consistancy
[9/15/2008 10:30:02 PM] Hyblaean says: not you specifically, you know that right
[9/15/2008 10:30:49 PM] A good and kind man says: My friends are no longer poor but I was and my friends were all poor at one time and we all hate war. Cept I'll let you know when I was a kid I was ready for war.
[9/15/2008 10:31:02 PM] Hyblaean says: : )
[9/15/2008 10:32:34 PM] Hyblaean says: Do you vote Green?
[9/15/2008 10:32:56 PM] A good and kind man says: I see you generalizing about poor and rich but I don't feel that. I am MAD Green, but don't vote it?
[9/15/2008 10:33:04 PM] Hyblaean says: MAD?
[9/15/2008 10:34:16 PM] Hyblaean says: the lower classes send their kids off to war, the upper classes have enough money to avoid it, and teach their childeren that war is not good, but at the same time, it's how our economy is so rich
[9/15/2008 10:34:24 PM] A good and kind man says: Jimmy Carter rant, what Reagan did to his Ecology, conservation, fuel incentive programs, god the short sightedness, off Reagan for ripping all of Jimmy's projects to shreds, and applauded by the right for doing it. MAD!!
[9/15/2008 10:34:59 PM] Hyblaean says: ah- so you like Greens, but don't vote that way
[9/15/2008 10:35:15 PM] A good and kind man says: In no other country can you go between classes so easily.
[9/15/2008 10:35:26 PM] Hyblaean says: you cannot do it easily here
[9/15/2008 10:35:31 PM] Hyblaean says: that is a fallacy
[9/15/2008 10:35:32 PM] A good and kind man says: No I just don't vote enough, but my heart is there.
[9/15/2008 10:35:41 PM] Hyblaean says: you dont' vote?
[9/15/2008 10:35:45 PM] Hyblaean says: *shock*
[9/15/2008 10:35:47 PM] A good and kind man says: YOu can, yeah I vote.
[9/15/2008 10:36:51 PM] Hyblaean says: I vote for 50% women- that is my focused goal for our country- I think it will get us closer to the green platform than voting green, because of the electoral college
[9/15/2008 10:37:01 PM] A good and kind man says: You can go between classes. you are probably only a lower class tourist, which makes you more dangerous than the born and bred poor. (I'm not trying to be inflammatory, and maybe you agree?)
[9/15/2008 10:37:10 PM] Hyblaean says: absolutely
[9/15/2008 10:37:25 PM] Hyblaean says: but it has been a fricking extended stay, and I want my visa back
[9/15/2008 10:37:29 PM] Hyblaean says: you know what I mean?
[9/15/2008 10:37:38 PM] A good and kind man says: yeah soon come my friend
[9/15/2008 10:37:45 PM] Hyblaean says: I cannot imagine being trapped there my entire life, it's not fair
[9/15/2008 10:37:53 PM] A good and kind man says: soon come
[9/15/2008 10:37:56 PM] Hyblaean says: fundamentally fight the rich to the death not fair
[9/15/2008 10:38:03 PM] Hyblaean says: not just me- all of us
[9/15/2008 10:38:04 PM] A good and kind man says: the rage, I had it
[9/15/2008 10:38:23 PM] Hyblaean says: It's not enough that i am getting out
[9/15/2008 10:38:29 PM] Hyblaean says: starting to cry here
[9/15/2008 10:38:34 PM] Hyblaean says: it's just not enough
[9/15/2008 10:38:37 PM] Hyblaean says: 50%
[9/15/2008 10:39:15 PM] A good and kind man says: hey take it a day at a time, you know what you know now but that rage will soften and I believe if you are like me may change.
[9/15/2008 10:39:26 PM] Hyblaean says: I hope not
[9/15/2008 10:39:36 PM] Hyblaean says: this is not right, our set up is not right
[9/15/2008 10:39:38 PM] A good and kind man says: take it a day at a time.
[9/15/2008 10:39:42 PM] Hyblaean says: bullshit
[9/15/2008 10:39:55 PM] Hyblaean says: life is too short for that low of a momentum
[9/15/2008 10:40:11 PM] A good and kind man says: Hey what the US does to other countries isn't fair, what they'd want to do or may yet do to us isn't fair.
[9/15/2008 10:40:50 PM] A good and kind man says: No, not a negative thing it just helps, it keeps the energy and spirit up.
[9/15/2008 10:40:55 PM] Hyblaean says: I am actually much less interested in international politics, I firmly believe we need 2 presidents- one for international, one for here
[9/15/2008 10:41:15 PM] Hyblaean says: I want someone focused on our people
[9/15/2008 10:41:26 PM] Hyblaean says: and our interdynamics of classes and cultures
[9/15/2008 10:41:39 PM] Hyblaean says: we need at least a group really
[9/15/2008 10:42:38 PM] A good and kind man says: You are going to be one of those people in the nice car hating war, as am I, do we hate ourselves? I don't, I believe in this country and that we can change and that there are huge injustices and we can change them.
[9/15/2008 10:43:43 PM] Hyblaean says: I think that the people in power will never give away power w/o a fight, and I (women, bisexual, poor) cannot bring a fight to them- I can only talk and talk and talk and talk
[9/15/2008 10:43:50 PM] Hyblaean says: fountain of bs
[9/15/2008 10:43:54 PM] Hyblaean says: but it's all I have
[9/15/2008 10:44:11 PM] Hyblaean says: yes, I do hate myself- I know what fair is
[9/15/2008 10:44:37 PM] Hyblaean says: I know what right is, and this is so far from it, it's not even close to happening in my lifetime
[9/15/2008 10:46:20 PM] A good and kind man says: I learned it ain't so, no words are a fountain of bs, everything you say and do counts, part of that is making sure you respect yourself enough not to hate yourself, you have the luxury of pondering this in a very thorough manner and as you are doing anyway working your way to a better place.
[9/15/2008 10:46:50 PM] Hyblaean says: grunt
[9/15/2008 10:48:20 PM] A good and kind man says: I left wife in the other room and she was nice enough not to bother me while I'm texting away, she is a good one. I am sure she didn't realize how deep it was gettng here but left me to do anyway. :)
[9/15/2008 10:48:57 PM] Hyblaean says: :) She is a good one
[9/15/2008 10:49:05 PM] Hyblaean says: it's important- good
[9/15/2008 10:49:12 PM] Hyblaean says: completely underrated
[9/15/2008 10:49:32 PM] A good and kind man says: I thought you were going to call me on that positive speak of working your way to a better place but it is crazy that you remind of someone I know well. me
[9/15/2008 10:50:00 PM] Hyblaean says: : ) may I come out of this even 1/2 as sane
[9/15/2008 10:50:19 PM] Hyblaean says: 37 is too old to be this idealistic
[9/15/2008 10:50:23 PM] Hyblaean says: and frustrated
[9/15/2008 10:50:39 PM] A good and kind man says: I'm glad we are clear on the politics thing, we are pretty much in the same party except for some rant about the rich, which I'd like to leave alone at this time.?
[9/15/2008 10:51:05 PM] Hyblaean says: ahahhahah- you're lucky I didn't give you the rant about men- rofl- you wouldn't like that one either
[9/15/2008 10:51:10 PM] Hyblaean says: it's about as coherent
[9/15/2008 10:51:15 PM] Hyblaean says: more foam i think
[9/15/2008 10:52:12 PM] A good and kind man says: Hey lets save that for when we are really even more solid friends cause it shook a little tonight.
[9/15/2008 10:52:19 PM] Hyblaean says: grin
[9/15/2008 10:52:21 PM] Hyblaean says: ok
[9/15/2008 10:52:40 PM] Hyblaean says: (handshake)
[9/15/2008 10:52:41 PM] A good and kind man says: gutte nacht?
[9/15/2008 10:52:47 PM] Hyblaean says: gutte abend
[9/15/2008 10:53:00 PM] A good and kind man says: :)
[9/15/2008 10:53:04 PM] A good and kind man says: yah yah